1 00:00:00,056 --> 00:00:01,966 Carl Kemnitz, Provost & Senior Vice President 2 00:00:01,966 --> 00:00:04,266 of Academic Affairs: If I could get your attention up here, 3 00:00:04,266 --> 00:00:05,346 we're going to get started. 4 00:00:05,346 --> 00:00:07,266 I'm Carl Kemnitz, I'm Senior Vice Provost 5 00:00:07,266 --> 00:00:09,876 and it's my pleasure to be introducing Craig Simpson. 6 00:00:09,876 --> 00:00:13,446 He's going to be telling us about the Kent State shootings 7 00:00:13,446 --> 00:00:16,126 at 50: Rage, Reflection, and Remembrance. 8 00:00:16,796 --> 00:00:20,196 And this is part of the University Scholar Series 9 00:00:20,256 --> 00:00:22,086 which we've been doing for quite a few years 10 00:00:22,246 --> 00:00:26,266 and it's been sponsored by Provost Office, the Library 11 00:00:26,676 --> 00:00:31,366 and others who have brought this together. 12 00:00:31,806 --> 00:00:34,206 And I know that Craig's talk is really good. 13 00:00:34,206 --> 00:00:36,076 I'm really interested in hearing about this. 14 00:00:36,076 --> 00:00:39,366 I've been hearing about it through all sorts 15 00:00:39,366 --> 00:00:40,346 of different venues 16 00:00:40,426 --> 00:00:44,346 but I haven't heard really the oral history of Kent State, 17 00:00:44,346 --> 00:00:45,916 which I think is fascinating. 18 00:00:46,316 --> 00:00:50,376 I saw that Craig is an alumnus 19 00:00:50,606 --> 00:00:56,346 of Kent State although I don't think unless he has a 20 00:00:56,346 --> 00:00:59,716 [inaudible] that he was contemporaneous there. 21 00:00:59,816 --> 00:01:06,766 So he missed that by a few years. 22 00:01:07,166 --> 00:01:12,276 And he's been here for a couple years as the Director 23 00:01:12,626 --> 00:01:13,746 of Special Collections 24 00:01:13,836 --> 00:01:17,646 and Archives here in the MLK Library. 25 00:01:17,646 --> 00:01:20,596 So please welcome Craig and he'll leave some time 26 00:01:20,596 --> 00:01:21,916 for questions at the end. 27 00:01:22,516 --> 00:01:25,516 [ Applause ] 28 00:01:26,016 --> 00:01:27,586 >> Craig Simpson, SJSU Special Collections and Archives: 29 00:01:27,586 --> 00:01:28,916 Thank you, Carl, very much. 30 00:01:28,916 --> 00:01:32,076 Thank you all for coming particularly 31 00:01:32,186 --> 00:01:34,146 on a very eventful day like today. 32 00:01:34,366 --> 00:01:38,906 I'm probably losing power as I speak, very exciting 33 00:01:39,056 --> 00:01:41,466 and it's also [inaudible] as well today. 34 00:01:42,686 --> 00:01:44,866 Thank you for coming. 35 00:01:45,726 --> 00:01:49,106 Why don't we start with titles. 36 00:01:49,646 --> 00:01:54,186 Over the summer I was asked to come up with a title 37 00:01:54,186 --> 00:01:55,456 for this presentation. 38 00:01:55,546 --> 00:01:57,726 And after a lot of hemming and hawing, 39 00:01:58,476 --> 00:02:01,056 I settled on the one here 40 00:02:01,136 --> 00:02:04,806 because literation is usually a good thing. 41 00:02:05,086 --> 00:02:07,956 But then when the semester started, 42 00:02:07,956 --> 00:02:09,586 I contacted Leslie [assumed spelling] 43 00:02:09,586 --> 00:02:12,806 and she got the message that I'm sure she loves to hear 44 00:02:12,806 --> 00:02:15,856 which is I don't like that title, can we change it. 45 00:02:15,856 --> 00:02:17,016 And it was too late. 46 00:02:17,166 --> 00:02:18,696 So that's on me. 47 00:02:18,946 --> 00:02:20,286 But you know what? 48 00:02:20,366 --> 00:02:25,066 I think it's okay because it's illustrative of a key point 49 00:02:25,066 --> 00:02:30,256 about this event which I have been studying now or kind 50 00:02:30,256 --> 00:02:31,936 of involved with one way or another 51 00:02:31,936 --> 00:02:35,836 for about the last 15 years or so and that is 52 00:02:36,216 --> 00:02:41,196 that when it comes to Kent State, titles, definitions, 53 00:02:41,436 --> 00:02:49,306 labels, how we have interpreted this event over the last soon 54 00:02:49,516 --> 00:02:55,676 to be 50 years in May of 2020 has been a subject of a lot 55 00:02:55,676 --> 00:02:58,266 of discussion and a lot of contention. 56 00:02:59,006 --> 00:03:04,426 And so it's fitting in a way when a lot 57 00:03:04,426 --> 00:03:06,316 of people have gotten it wrong 58 00:03:06,586 --> 00:03:08,976 and it's only been fairly recently I think 59 00:03:09,386 --> 00:03:12,206 as we'll see throughout this talk about that I think more 60 00:03:12,206 --> 00:03:17,596 in the last decade or so I think attempts to try 61 00:03:17,786 --> 00:03:21,606 to understand what happened have been better 62 00:03:22,086 --> 00:03:23,806 and the way we've tried 63 00:03:23,896 --> 00:03:27,556 to remember it I think has improved as well. 64 00:03:28,006 --> 00:03:30,516 You can see that a lot of the mistakes happened 65 00:03:30,516 --> 00:03:31,666 from the very beginning. 66 00:03:31,736 --> 00:03:36,326 These are three headlines from newspapers in northeast Ohio. 67 00:03:36,826 --> 00:03:39,376 And one thing they have in common is they are all wrong. 68 00:03:40,056 --> 00:03:44,766 The Kent "Record-Courier" on May 4, 1970, 69 00:03:44,856 --> 00:03:48,346 reported that two guardsmen and one student died 70 00:03:48,346 --> 00:03:50,766 and the universities must oust hooligans. 71 00:03:51,666 --> 00:03:55,136 It also then the Cleveland "Plain Dealer" 72 00:03:55,136 --> 00:03:58,316 on May 5th was a little better, a little more accurate 73 00:03:58,316 --> 00:04:00,036 with four dead and ten hurt. 74 00:04:00,616 --> 00:04:02,306 And the "Akron Beacon Journal" 75 00:04:02,306 --> 00:04:07,346 in the bottom right mentioned four killed and 12 shot. 76 00:04:08,336 --> 00:04:12,386 The "Akron Beacon Journal" though eventually won a Pulitzer 77 00:04:12,386 --> 00:04:14,286 for their coverage of the shootings. 78 00:04:14,286 --> 00:04:17,636 Overall, they had the most accurate reporting 79 00:04:18,096 --> 00:04:20,606 and one reason because of that is 80 00:04:20,946 --> 00:04:25,136 because Kent State University had an excellent school 81 00:04:25,136 --> 00:04:30,746 for journalism and many students in that school were interning 82 00:04:30,746 --> 00:04:32,056 at the "Akron Beacon Journal." 83 00:04:32,266 --> 00:04:34,996 So many of them actually witnessed the shootings, 84 00:04:35,086 --> 00:04:37,446 which were right outside of Taylor Hall, 85 00:04:37,486 --> 00:04:39,896 where the journalism school was. 86 00:04:40,766 --> 00:04:42,996 In case you're wondering what was happening in San Jose 87 00:04:42,996 --> 00:04:48,366 at that time, also on May 4, indeed there were protests going 88 00:04:48,366 --> 00:04:54,466 on here, too, and some parallels to what was happening at Kent. 89 00:04:54,576 --> 00:04:56,686 And elsewhere and we'll talk 90 00:04:56,686 --> 00:04:58,976 about that a little bit later as well, too. 91 00:05:00,376 --> 00:05:06,766 One thing that that has been I think more impressionable have 92 00:05:06,796 --> 00:05:08,506 been the images from the shootings. 93 00:05:09,456 --> 00:05:14,296 There were many students who took photographs. 94 00:05:15,776 --> 00:05:19,436 In fact, they were encouraged, not knowing what was going 95 00:05:19,436 --> 00:05:22,036 to happen, they were encouraged to go to the rally 96 00:05:22,036 --> 00:05:27,596 and to photograph the event from some of their professors. 97 00:05:27,596 --> 00:05:30,256 It was John Filo who was a student at Kent State 98 00:05:30,376 --> 00:05:33,356 who took what became this iconic photograph 99 00:05:33,946 --> 00:05:35,446 that won a Pulitzer Prize. 100 00:05:35,446 --> 00:05:39,116 It's Mary Ann Vecchio who was not a student. 101 00:05:39,116 --> 00:05:44,116 She was a runaway from Florida at about 14 or 15 and she's 102 00:05:44,216 --> 00:05:47,136 over the body of Jeffrey Miller who's one 103 00:05:47,136 --> 00:05:49,006 of the four students who were killed. 104 00:05:49,696 --> 00:05:54,506 There were -- John Filipino ironically he tried 105 00:05:54,506 --> 00:05:57,416 to submit this photograph and others to the 106 00:05:57,416 --> 00:05:59,666 "Akron Beacon Journal" and they told him no 107 00:05:59,666 --> 00:06:02,346 because they already had enough. 108 00:06:02,346 --> 00:06:06,426 And he was afraid that his photos would get confiscated, 109 00:06:06,426 --> 00:06:10,656 which did happen to more than a few student photographers. 110 00:06:11,096 --> 00:06:14,606 And so he went across the border to a small town in Pennsylvania. 111 00:06:14,606 --> 00:06:16,626 I forget the name but they are the ones 112 00:06:16,716 --> 00:06:19,476 who eventually first published this photograph 113 00:06:19,726 --> 00:06:23,946 which eventually appeared in "Life Magazine." 114 00:06:23,946 --> 00:06:25,476 The literature of Kent, 115 00:06:25,476 --> 00:06:31,476 the written word has been honestly pretty spotty, 116 00:06:33,316 --> 00:06:35,246 pretty flawed from the beginning. 117 00:06:35,346 --> 00:06:40,616 The first and probably still best known book is "Kent State: 118 00:06:40,616 --> 00:06:43,756 What Happened and Why" by James Michener which came 119 00:06:43,756 --> 00:06:51,966 out I think it was early 1971 that this book came out. 120 00:06:52,176 --> 00:06:56,856 Because Mitchener was a gifted novelist, it has a lot 121 00:06:56,856 --> 00:07:00,436 of captivating and interesting anecdotes, 122 00:07:00,766 --> 00:07:02,596 which unfortunately many of them are false, 123 00:07:02,996 --> 00:07:06,476 and many of them also I think did a lot of, 124 00:07:06,616 --> 00:07:08,276 I think it did a lot of harm in some 125 00:07:08,276 --> 00:07:11,246 of the early impressions of the shootings. 126 00:07:11,426 --> 00:07:14,966 I think a lot of people still kind of draw from a lot of the, 127 00:07:15,066 --> 00:07:17,276 some of the myths that came out of them. 128 00:07:17,566 --> 00:07:20,946 Also speaking of titles, the book I have here, 129 00:07:21,006 --> 00:07:25,136 "Thirteen Seconds" is in reference to the amount of time 130 00:07:25,226 --> 00:07:29,846 that the National Guard opened fire, by Joe Eszterhas 131 00:07:29,846 --> 00:07:31,306 and Michael D. Roberts. 132 00:07:31,836 --> 00:07:37,766 "Four Dead in Ohio" by Bill Gordon is the title of a book 133 00:07:37,836 --> 00:07:39,646 that he self-published. 134 00:07:39,786 --> 00:07:43,416 In effect, he had self-published this book, it's the same book 135 00:07:43,416 --> 00:07:45,716 but there are three different titles to it. 136 00:07:46,176 --> 00:07:49,696 "Four Dead in Ohio" is the best known one. 137 00:07:50,126 --> 00:07:51,996 So these are more popular books. 138 00:07:52,416 --> 00:07:57,646 A more academic book which is very good by Tom Hensley is the 139 00:07:57,706 --> 00:08:01,116 "Kent State Incident: Impact of Judicial Process 140 00:08:01,276 --> 00:08:06,436 on Public Attitudes" and a couple more recent books. 141 00:08:06,556 --> 00:08:12,416 There is "67 Shots" by Howard Means which came 142 00:08:12,416 --> 00:08:17,046 out about two weeks before our book did in 2016 143 00:08:17,046 --> 00:08:19,376 and it also drew pretty heavily 144 00:08:19,496 --> 00:08:21,236 from the oral history interviews. 145 00:08:21,566 --> 00:08:24,696 And that title of course is referring to the number of shots 146 00:08:24,766 --> 00:08:26,946 that were fired in those 13 seconds. 147 00:08:27,996 --> 00:08:31,546 I think the best book for anyone who might be interested 148 00:08:31,546 --> 00:08:34,686 in by Tom Grace which is "Kent State: 149 00:08:35,096 --> 00:08:37,256 Death and Dissent in the Long Sixties." 150 00:08:37,556 --> 00:08:41,076 Tom was one of the wounded students 151 00:08:42,186 --> 00:08:48,926 and he also became a really excellent historian and scholar. 152 00:08:48,926 --> 00:08:53,566 And so his book combines both of these sides of him. 153 00:08:53,756 --> 00:08:56,086 So it has both kind of a personal 154 00:08:56,356 --> 00:09:00,126 and it has the academic side as well, too. 155 00:09:00,806 --> 00:09:02,886 "The Long Sixties," incidentally 156 00:09:02,886 --> 00:09:08,266 in the subtitle is often why historians refer to kind 157 00:09:08,266 --> 00:09:12,276 of the attitudes or movements or maybe just kind 158 00:09:12,276 --> 00:09:15,576 of the protest movement in general which started 159 00:09:15,976 --> 00:09:23,286 around 1965 and it continued some say it did on May 4, 1970. 160 00:09:23,676 --> 00:09:27,486 The great thing about Tom's book is it really I think 161 00:09:27,686 --> 00:09:32,376 de-mythologizes some of the assumptions about Kent State. 162 00:09:33,216 --> 00:09:35,996 He writes in his introduction that it's "a subject that is 163 00:09:35,996 --> 00:09:39,016 at once familiar yet often poorly understood." 164 00:09:39,616 --> 00:09:43,056 And the two things he does I think are really valuable is he 165 00:09:43,176 --> 00:09:46,066 traces the origins of the protest movement 166 00:09:46,206 --> 00:09:49,346 in northeast Ohio to really 167 00:09:49,346 --> 00:09:52,826 around 1961 was the first protest. 168 00:09:53,206 --> 00:09:56,736 One of the myths that Mitchener's book perpetuates is 169 00:09:56,806 --> 00:10:02,396 that the shootings kind of came out of the blue or the protests 170 00:10:02,496 --> 00:10:03,936 that day came out of nowhere. 171 00:10:04,516 --> 00:10:09,386 The historical record shows that that was patently false 172 00:10:09,626 --> 00:10:15,246 and Tom really does a great job of charting really all 173 00:10:15,246 --> 00:10:18,816 of the social activism at Kent State throughout that day 174 00:10:18,816 --> 00:10:23,016 of which he became a part of around 1968 or '69. 175 00:10:23,016 --> 00:10:29,986 And he also talks about after the fact as well that May 4, 176 00:10:29,986 --> 00:10:33,996 1970, did not end the protest movement but that 177 00:10:33,996 --> 00:10:40,706 in fact it actually lit a fire under a wave of campus protests 178 00:10:41,306 --> 00:10:42,356 that occurred afterwards. 179 00:10:45,326 --> 00:10:48,066 Also in terms of definitions 180 00:10:48,356 --> 00:10:51,256 in terms I thought I would point this 181 00:10:51,256 --> 00:10:53,176 out because I think it's interesting. 182 00:10:54,326 --> 00:10:57,576 The Library of Congress originally if you look 183 00:10:58,126 --> 00:11:03,556 at the very bottom from the very beginning of the publications 184 00:11:04,646 --> 00:11:07,416 of this event, they were always referred 185 00:11:07,416 --> 00:11:08,696 to under the subject heading 186 00:11:08,786 --> 00:11:12,526 "Kent State University Riot" 1970, May 4, 187 00:11:13,056 --> 00:11:17,046 and that was always pretty irksome to a great deal 188 00:11:17,216 --> 00:11:20,236 of people who were there. 189 00:11:20,796 --> 00:11:24,456 And I was working at Kent State Special Collections. 190 00:11:24,496 --> 00:11:26,056 I started in 2004. 191 00:11:26,646 --> 00:11:28,846 And right around 2005, 192 00:11:28,846 --> 00:11:32,256 my colleague who's a cataloguer there, 193 00:11:32,756 --> 00:11:35,396 she petitioned the Library of Congress to get them 194 00:11:35,396 --> 00:11:36,856 to change the subject heading, 195 00:11:37,346 --> 00:11:41,026 which I did not know you could do, and they did it 196 00:11:41,026 --> 00:11:42,646 and I think around 2006. 197 00:11:42,706 --> 00:11:46,416 So now it's called "Kent State Shootings Kent Ohio" 198 00:11:46,666 --> 00:11:51,026 and it has a couple of areas that you can see down there. 199 00:11:51,076 --> 00:11:54,656 I like this story because I think it was right 200 00:11:54,656 --> 00:11:59,286 around that time that some of the kind of the narratives 201 00:11:59,896 --> 00:12:05,806 of the shootings began to change from sort of identifying it 202 00:12:05,806 --> 00:12:11,686 as a riot and thereby implying that the students 203 00:12:11,926 --> 00:12:15,566 or the protestors were to blame to identifying it 204 00:12:15,746 --> 00:12:20,156 as the responsibility of the people who fired the guns. 205 00:12:22,996 --> 00:12:26,246 So our book came out in 2016 as well. 206 00:12:29,166 --> 00:12:35,526 And the title for this book was my idea and nobody liked it. 207 00:12:35,526 --> 00:12:36,846 Everybody said, well, we'll just, 208 00:12:36,976 --> 00:12:39,906 that'll be a working title, if we come up with something better 209 00:12:40,036 --> 00:12:42,796 and we ended up kind of settling on it. 210 00:12:43,126 --> 00:12:49,286 I came up with "Above the Shots" because I was the head 211 00:12:49,286 --> 00:12:52,536 of the Oral History Project there for most 212 00:12:52,536 --> 00:12:57,216 of my time there 2004, 2005, to 2010 and I just kind 213 00:12:57,406 --> 00:13:01,016 of had this idea I so much loved this project 214 00:13:01,016 --> 00:13:05,096 and really loved interviewing all of these narrators 215 00:13:05,576 --> 00:13:09,206 that I think what I loved most about it is 216 00:13:09,256 --> 00:13:11,636 that I saw their voices sort of rising 217 00:13:12,206 --> 00:13:17,856 above the [inaudible] kind of rising above all this noise 218 00:13:18,286 --> 00:13:24,916 and dispute about Kent State and really started to clarify things 219 00:13:25,036 --> 00:13:29,256 in a way that I had never known before that. 220 00:13:29,256 --> 00:13:32,286 I was superficially knowledgeable 221 00:13:32,286 --> 00:13:33,816 about what happened. 222 00:13:33,816 --> 00:13:35,676 I think I learned about it in high school, 223 00:13:35,806 --> 00:13:43,466 probably like many people, but I never really got to know a lot 224 00:13:43,516 --> 00:13:47,846 about it and how complicated and fascinating it was 225 00:13:48,226 --> 00:13:50,696 until I started working on this project. 226 00:13:51,596 --> 00:13:53,146 So the book started to take shape 227 00:13:53,656 --> 00:13:59,516 and my co-author Greg Wilson who is a history professor 228 00:13:59,516 --> 00:14:04,736 at the University of Akron, he and I settled on an idea 229 00:14:04,736 --> 00:14:07,206 that this book would be a little different from some 230 00:14:07,206 --> 00:14:09,166 of the other titles that I have shown you. 231 00:14:09,896 --> 00:14:14,066 Most of the books on Kent State focus exclusively, 232 00:14:14,066 --> 00:14:17,456 almost exclusively on May 4, maybe the three 233 00:14:17,456 --> 00:14:19,506 or four days leading up to it. 234 00:14:19,506 --> 00:14:21,466 So it's a pretty tight timeframe. 235 00:14:22,026 --> 00:14:25,596 And most of them focus kind of exclusively on just one question 236 00:14:25,596 --> 00:14:27,266 and it's an important question, 237 00:14:27,266 --> 00:14:29,716 which is why did the guard open fire. 238 00:14:29,956 --> 00:14:35,156 And there are interpretations of that ranging from fairly basic 239 00:14:35,316 --> 00:14:42,366 to more conspiratorial but our objective was not necessarily 240 00:14:42,366 --> 00:14:45,566 to dismiss that question but we wanted to frame it 241 00:14:46,676 --> 00:14:49,246 within a much wider perspective. 242 00:14:49,676 --> 00:14:53,116 So we wanted to chart the narrative and some 243 00:14:53,116 --> 00:14:58,796 of the competing narratives from the decade prior to May 4, 1970, 244 00:14:58,856 --> 00:15:00,996 through the long sixties that Tom mentioned, 245 00:15:01,576 --> 00:15:03,296 through the five decades leading up to, 246 00:15:03,546 --> 00:15:04,976 pretty close to the present day. 247 00:15:06,326 --> 00:15:10,146 And we wanted to focus not just on what happened 248 00:15:10,286 --> 00:15:12,696 but we were also very interested in how 249 00:15:12,696 --> 00:15:18,776 and why people remember what they remember. 250 00:15:18,826 --> 00:15:20,546 Greg's specialty is memory studies. 251 00:15:21,426 --> 00:15:24,396 And in his introduction in our book, 252 00:15:24,396 --> 00:15:26,706 he references Katharine Hodgkin 253 00:15:26,706 --> 00:15:29,986 and Susannah Radstone, "Contested Pasts." 254 00:15:30,866 --> 00:15:33,576 And he quotes them as saying "The focus 255 00:15:33,706 --> 00:15:36,786 of contestation is very often not conflicting accounts 256 00:15:37,436 --> 00:15:40,846 about what happened in the past so much as the question of who 257 00:15:40,846 --> 00:15:44,646 or what is entitled to speak for that past in the present." 258 00:15:45,146 --> 00:15:48,056 And Greg adds, I italicize at the bottom, 259 00:15:48,056 --> 00:15:52,246 he adds that that's very much true but when it comes 260 00:15:52,316 --> 00:15:57,086 to this particular topic, it's very much about what happened 261 00:15:57,196 --> 00:15:59,176 as much as the meaning. 262 00:15:59,176 --> 00:16:02,976 And we see that in so many of these narratives, 263 00:16:03,316 --> 00:16:05,136 whether they are five minutes long 264 00:16:05,246 --> 00:16:09,506 or whether they're an hour or two hours. 265 00:16:09,506 --> 00:16:15,156 What I brought to the table in this collaboration was my work 266 00:16:15,156 --> 00:16:17,856 as both an oral historian and an archivist. 267 00:16:18,686 --> 00:16:21,516 And there's probably no better article 268 00:16:21,516 --> 00:16:25,146 that combines these two topics than the one by Linda Shopes, 269 00:16:25,266 --> 00:16:26,416 "Insights and Oversights." 270 00:16:27,236 --> 00:16:31,316 And Shopes talks about how we typically identify oral 271 00:16:31,316 --> 00:16:34,806 history's intellectual trajectory as moving kind 272 00:16:34,806 --> 00:16:37,336 of starting from an understanding of the interview 273 00:16:37,336 --> 00:16:43,326 as an archival document to then its movement, its trajectory 274 00:16:43,826 --> 00:16:45,576 as a narrative construction. 275 00:16:45,576 --> 00:16:48,616 But Shopes argues something a little bit different 276 00:16:48,676 --> 00:16:52,346 that the course of development isn't really quite that tidy 277 00:16:52,786 --> 00:16:55,556 and that the very first oral historians, 278 00:16:55,726 --> 00:16:58,556 even though they didn't really call themselves oral historians, 279 00:16:59,026 --> 00:17:03,416 they weren't ignorant of oral history's textual complexity 280 00:17:03,916 --> 00:17:07,716 and a great deal of more recent work is fundamentally archival 281 00:17:08,126 --> 00:17:10,426 and additive. 282 00:17:10,426 --> 00:17:17,266 And that really struck me pretty profoundly, too, 283 00:17:17,266 --> 00:17:20,376 because one thing we did that's a lot different 284 00:17:20,376 --> 00:17:25,166 than other oral history projects is we did our own transcription, 285 00:17:25,356 --> 00:17:30,826 just literally I was typing and we didn't use any of transcript, 286 00:17:31,206 --> 00:17:33,936 automated things that you can use. 287 00:17:33,936 --> 00:17:37,636 And when you do that, you really start to learn, you really start 288 00:17:37,996 --> 00:17:41,406 to learn the complexity of these narratives. 289 00:17:42,436 --> 00:17:46,596 And I could give an entirely different talk on the excitement 290 00:17:46,596 --> 00:17:50,896 of transcribing but that'll be another time. 291 00:17:51,046 --> 00:17:52,286 Anyway, it's interesting. 292 00:17:53,436 --> 00:17:55,746 But all those things kind of came into play 293 00:17:55,746 --> 00:18:00,306 when we were talking about how to write this book 294 00:18:01,166 --> 00:18:04,246 because I'll be honest, at first my idea, 295 00:18:04,596 --> 00:18:09,266 because there have been books like this, was simply to take, 296 00:18:09,266 --> 00:18:12,306 I kind of had an idea of a big ensemble cast, 297 00:18:12,356 --> 00:18:16,136 so there's over 100 interviews total in the collection, 298 00:18:16,186 --> 00:18:19,986 maybe use about 50 of them and sort of follow them, 299 00:18:20,426 --> 00:18:24,256 follow this ensemble as they talk about what happened. 300 00:18:24,256 --> 00:18:27,736 But then when Greg came into the picture, we decided that sort 301 00:18:27,736 --> 00:18:30,746 of maybe made things a little bit more challenging 302 00:18:30,746 --> 00:18:34,086 than hopefully for ourselves but hopefully beneficial for readers 303 00:18:34,086 --> 00:18:37,126 which would be to insert our voices 304 00:18:37,126 --> 00:18:40,246 and our own interpretations as well. 305 00:18:40,916 --> 00:18:45,316 So it was a little bit complicated to weave through 306 00:18:45,426 --> 00:18:49,006 but I think on the whole it came out okay. 307 00:18:49,496 --> 00:18:52,956 But really it's the interviews are the foundation 308 00:18:53,646 --> 00:18:56,406 and I'll give you a link to this a little bit later. 309 00:18:56,846 --> 00:18:59,576 But you can access all these interviews. 310 00:18:59,616 --> 00:19:03,406 You can look at a lot that's in this collection online 311 00:19:03,776 --> 00:19:05,286 through Kent State Special Collections. 312 00:19:06,116 --> 00:19:09,146 Another thing on titles, is anyone here 313 00:19:09,146 --> 00:19:12,416 from Northeast Ohio by any chance? 314 00:19:12,416 --> 00:19:16,876 No. Well in Northeast Ohio, this is called the May 4 oftentimes, 315 00:19:16,976 --> 00:19:18,946 so when you say the May 4, 316 00:19:18,946 --> 00:19:20,786 people usually know what you're talking about. 317 00:19:20,846 --> 00:19:24,706 And so that's why this is called the Kent State Shootings May 318 00:19:24,846 --> 00:19:25,886 4 Collection. 319 00:19:26,676 --> 00:19:29,126 And the oral histories are really just kind 320 00:19:29,256 --> 00:19:34,006 of one relatively small component of it. 321 00:19:34,006 --> 00:19:36,356 There's a lot of documentation. 322 00:19:37,046 --> 00:19:40,816 There is a great deal of it has been digitized 323 00:19:40,816 --> 00:19:43,556 and I'm sure it'll just be a collection 324 00:19:43,586 --> 00:19:44,636 that kind of keeps going. 325 00:19:44,636 --> 00:19:47,166 It's really an umbrella title for a bunch 326 00:19:47,396 --> 00:19:51,186 of different sub-collections. 327 00:19:51,326 --> 00:19:55,756 The Oral History Project real quick started long before I ever 328 00:19:55,756 --> 00:19:56,826 got to Kent State. 329 00:19:57,326 --> 00:20:01,786 It began in 1990 by a woman named Sandra Perlman Halem 330 00:20:02,046 --> 00:20:03,946 who did not work at the university. 331 00:20:04,046 --> 00:20:09,876 She was the codirector of the Historical Society at Kent. 332 00:20:09,876 --> 00:20:12,686 And she eventually donated these interviews 333 00:20:13,156 --> 00:20:15,546 and she collected about 70 interviews. 334 00:20:16,496 --> 00:20:19,096 And they mostly were commemoration based. 335 00:20:19,366 --> 00:20:22,896 They had an annual commemoration on the campus every year. 336 00:20:23,416 --> 00:20:29,056 And most of the interviews she did were from the 1990, 1995, 337 00:20:29,056 --> 00:20:36,856 and 2000 commemorations as those are usually the big 338 00:20:36,856 --> 00:20:37,086 ones [inaudible]. 339 00:20:37,086 --> 00:20:39,266 These interviews, they're great. 340 00:20:39,686 --> 00:20:44,856 They tend to be more monologues than Q and As more 341 00:20:45,076 --> 00:20:49,836 than maybe what I think many oral historians were term it a 342 00:20:49,916 --> 00:20:52,206 typical oral history interview. 343 00:20:52,696 --> 00:20:55,416 They tend to focus on a pretty narrow timeframe. 344 00:20:56,006 --> 00:21:01,086 And Sandy was very much, she acknowledged that herself 345 00:21:01,086 --> 00:21:06,706 in saying that the goal was the accumulation of data for this 346 00:21:06,786 --> 00:21:09,316 and I think she succeeded very well. 347 00:21:09,486 --> 00:21:11,436 One quick example of an interview 348 00:21:11,436 --> 00:21:16,676 from her time period was Carol Mirman who is on the top left 349 00:21:17,186 --> 00:21:17,996 that you can see there. 350 00:21:18,496 --> 00:21:23,026 Carol, as you can see, was an eyewitness to the shootings. 351 00:21:23,516 --> 00:21:27,196 She also became known as one of the Kent 25, 352 00:21:27,326 --> 00:21:31,766 which were 24 students and one faculty member who were indicted 353 00:21:32,256 --> 00:21:37,466 by Portage County Grand Jury as the blame for the shootings. 354 00:21:37,466 --> 00:21:41,086 It was later, all the charges were eventually later dropped 355 00:21:41,836 --> 00:21:46,166 but Carol's interview doesn't talk about that at all. 356 00:21:46,166 --> 00:21:51,466 It starts mainly with where a lot of this event starts 357 00:21:51,586 --> 00:21:55,126 which is when Nixon announces his invasion of Cambodia, 358 00:21:55,456 --> 00:21:59,946 the night of April 30th, 1970, which was considered 359 00:22:00,136 --> 00:22:06,926 to be a deep betrayal because it was believed Nixon ran in 1968 360 00:22:06,926 --> 00:22:09,836 under the idea that he would do Vietnam de-escalation 361 00:22:10,076 --> 00:22:10,826 following LBJ. 362 00:22:12,696 --> 00:22:17,966 Then Carol and other narrators from the space want to also talk 363 00:22:17,966 --> 00:22:22,556 about often that Friday night May 1st, where there were riots 364 00:22:22,556 --> 00:22:27,626 in downtown Kent as largely a response to this. 365 00:22:28,346 --> 00:22:31,036 They also made the mistake in imposing a curfew 366 00:22:31,546 --> 00:22:34,836 around at the borders that night around 6 o'clock 367 00:22:34,916 --> 00:22:41,296 which some narrators said had the effect of sending everyone 368 00:22:41,296 --> 00:22:43,806 out into the street, drunk and angry and broke a lot 369 00:22:43,806 --> 00:22:48,426 of the windows and scared a lot of people and did a lot 370 00:22:48,426 --> 00:22:52,066 of physical damage to the area. 371 00:22:52,996 --> 00:22:55,976 Then on May 2nd, Carol and other narrators talk 372 00:22:55,976 --> 00:22:58,136 about the burning of the ROTC building. 373 00:22:58,826 --> 00:23:02,676 The ROTC building on campus was an abandoned barracks 374 00:23:02,676 --> 00:23:05,926 that had not been used since the 1950s. 375 00:23:06,286 --> 00:23:07,726 It was dilapidated. 376 00:23:08,046 --> 00:23:08,896 It was old. 377 00:23:09,046 --> 00:23:10,136 There was no one in there. 378 00:23:10,616 --> 00:23:12,786 And one thing you learn from a lot of these interviews, 379 00:23:12,786 --> 00:23:16,506 including some that I did, is everybody in town knew 380 00:23:16,556 --> 00:23:19,456 about this burning that was going to happen. 381 00:23:19,456 --> 00:23:22,776 One person, more than one person I interviewed said, hey -- 382 00:23:22,776 --> 00:23:24,576 People were saying, hey, let's pack a lunch 383 00:23:24,776 --> 00:23:27,506 and come watch the burning. 384 00:23:27,596 --> 00:23:29,126 So everybody knew about it. 385 00:23:29,496 --> 00:23:34,866 But this ended up prompting the mayor of Kent to call 386 00:23:34,866 --> 00:23:38,396 and ask the governor to summon the National Guard. 387 00:23:38,686 --> 00:23:42,976 So the Guard actually started appearing that night, 388 00:23:43,126 --> 00:23:47,256 Saturday night, and continued into Sunday morning. 389 00:23:47,746 --> 00:23:52,386 The National Guard that had been called had just been pulled off 390 00:23:53,056 --> 00:23:56,106 a very difficult teamster strike. 391 00:23:56,246 --> 00:23:59,906 They were responsible for guarding truckers 392 00:23:59,906 --> 00:24:01,856 who had broken a strike. 393 00:24:02,146 --> 00:24:05,006 And so the Guardsmen had actually been shot 394 00:24:05,006 --> 00:24:08,296 at in some cases and harassed and so forth. 395 00:24:08,376 --> 00:24:11,476 So they thought they were going to get some relief. 396 00:24:11,676 --> 00:24:15,096 So when they were called to Kent, they already had a lot 397 00:24:16,016 --> 00:24:19,186 of lack of sleep and they were very much on edge 398 00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:24,526 through their two, two and a half days that they were there. 399 00:24:25,296 --> 00:24:28,846 And Governor Rhodes, I want to say something briefly about him, 400 00:24:28,996 --> 00:24:31,856 as many narrators blame him as one 401 00:24:32,356 --> 00:24:34,946 of the key parties responsible for the shootings. 402 00:24:34,946 --> 00:24:38,596 Governor Rhodes was running for the Senate at that time in Ohio 403 00:24:38,596 --> 00:24:41,436 and he was losing the Republican primary. 404 00:24:42,156 --> 00:24:46,866 So he came to Kent after the ROTC building burned down 405 00:24:46,986 --> 00:24:53,366 and used this as an attempt to build up his campaign prior 406 00:24:53,366 --> 00:24:55,216 to the ballot on that Tuesday. 407 00:24:55,526 --> 00:24:59,636 Rhodes took a page from Governor Reagan at that time 408 00:24:59,746 --> 00:25:02,076 of California and he blamed the -- 409 00:25:02,816 --> 00:25:05,736 If you listen to the audio on the site, 410 00:25:05,766 --> 00:25:08,126 you can hear him banging his fists on the table 411 00:25:08,126 --> 00:25:14,646 and he blames the brown shirts and all outside agitators 412 00:25:14,696 --> 00:25:19,166 and a whole bunch of other stereotypical [inaudible] 413 00:25:19,856 --> 00:25:20,956 from Hollywood casting. 414 00:25:21,416 --> 00:25:27,896 So that night they were -- Also kind of going back, 415 00:25:28,076 --> 00:25:31,796 there were -- That night, there were protests 416 00:25:31,796 --> 00:25:33,816 in the streets as well. 417 00:25:34,196 --> 00:25:38,246 And one thing narrators like Carol Mirman also talked 418 00:25:38,246 --> 00:25:41,366 about is they were trying to study for midterm exams 419 00:25:41,646 --> 00:25:43,696 and there would be tear gas containers, 420 00:25:43,726 --> 00:25:45,866 sometimes they'd smell the tear gas coming 421 00:25:45,936 --> 00:25:49,656 through their dorm windows, helicopters buzzing 422 00:25:50,496 --> 00:25:52,716 and buzzing a light on them. 423 00:25:52,906 --> 00:25:57,346 So everything was very much on edge as they entered Monday, 424 00:25:57,346 --> 00:26:00,416 May 4, which was the first day of midterm exams. 425 00:26:00,776 --> 00:26:03,886 And there was a lot of confusion about whether 426 00:26:03,886 --> 00:26:07,176 or not there was a rally and whether or not it was banned. 427 00:26:07,596 --> 00:26:10,256 The president of the University was away. 428 00:26:11,086 --> 00:26:13,146 I think he came back late Sunday night. 429 00:26:14,096 --> 00:26:18,566 But anyway, at 12:24 pm, the Guard opened fire 430 00:26:19,026 --> 00:26:23,166 and they killed four students, Allison Krause, 431 00:26:23,346 --> 00:26:26,876 William Schroeder, Jeffrey Miller, and Sandra Scheuer 432 00:26:27,406 --> 00:26:29,166 and they wounded nine students. 433 00:26:29,356 --> 00:26:31,546 On the cover of "Life" is John Claire [assumed spelling] 434 00:26:31,546 --> 00:26:36,366 who I interviewed I think in 2009 or 2010 and so 435 00:26:37,786 --> 00:26:39,966 that was the accurate number. 436 00:26:45,166 --> 00:26:48,936 Phase two was when I started. 437 00:26:48,936 --> 00:26:52,936 And we ended up interviewing, we being me and a few 438 00:26:52,936 --> 00:26:54,896 of my students who were interested, 439 00:26:54,896 --> 00:26:56,566 did about 40 interviews. 440 00:26:56,566 --> 00:27:01,026 And we wanted to have a greater variety of narrators 441 00:27:01,026 --> 00:27:03,646 and not just May day commemoration based 442 00:27:03,646 --> 00:27:07,806 because if you're going to interview narrators solely 443 00:27:07,806 --> 00:27:10,616 on the commemorations, you're going to get mainly alumni. 444 00:27:11,646 --> 00:27:15,126 So we wanted to kind of broaden it in some way. 445 00:27:15,846 --> 00:27:18,096 We also wanted to broaden the timeframe. 446 00:27:18,846 --> 00:27:22,006 So in addition to getting narrators 447 00:27:22,006 --> 00:27:25,246 who were not just former students and faculty 448 00:27:25,246 --> 00:27:29,166 but also we managed to interview a couple of National Guardsmen. 449 00:27:29,836 --> 00:27:33,786 We interviewed a couple of member of Black United Students 450 00:27:33,786 --> 00:27:36,526 who were told to stay away from the rally that day. 451 00:27:36,526 --> 00:27:42,416 We also interviewed a couple of presidents of the university 452 00:27:42,416 --> 00:27:46,236 who came later and I'll show you that in just a moment. 453 00:27:46,806 --> 00:27:49,356 And just kind of turning it from an analogue project 454 00:27:49,356 --> 00:27:52,836 to a digital project, applying focused questions 455 00:27:52,836 --> 00:27:53,946 for interview structures 456 00:27:53,946 --> 00:27:58,046 and really just making the goals just enhancing extensibility 457 00:27:58,046 --> 00:28:01,716 and understanding and really opening up avenues for research. 458 00:28:02,536 --> 00:28:06,436 So some of the topics that narrators talked 459 00:28:06,436 --> 00:28:10,716 about were the development of the campus in the 1960s. 460 00:28:11,096 --> 00:28:15,376 I think in 1959, Kent State had 6000 students 461 00:28:15,806 --> 00:28:19,216 and by 1969 they had over 20,000 students. 462 00:28:19,216 --> 00:28:23,836 So that's a huge, huge growth in a small town. 463 00:28:24,986 --> 00:28:29,816 And there were many, many protests in the late '60s, 464 00:28:29,976 --> 00:28:32,096 as I mentioned, Tom Grace documented. 465 00:28:32,096 --> 00:28:34,686 One of them was the Black United Students walkout 466 00:28:35,356 --> 00:28:37,086 in November of 1968. 467 00:28:37,086 --> 00:28:40,956 That was when they protested the Oakland Police Department 468 00:28:41,096 --> 00:28:43,066 recruiting on the Kent State campus. 469 00:28:43,116 --> 00:28:45,376 The Oakland PD of course was notorious 470 00:28:45,566 --> 00:28:48,466 for targeting the Black Panthers in Oakland 471 00:28:48,946 --> 00:28:51,516 and people of color in general. 472 00:28:52,766 --> 00:28:59,916 So the Kent State administration was you know pretty fairly 473 00:28:59,916 --> 00:29:03,486 hostile to student protests, student activism in general, 474 00:29:03,746 --> 00:29:09,476 which was not untypical of most universities at that time. 475 00:29:10,286 --> 00:29:12,476 Then we wanted to look afterward as well. 476 00:29:12,846 --> 00:29:15,716 So we talked to narrators who were there for what was called 477 00:29:15,846 --> 00:29:20,726 "Tent City" in 1977 which was a protest of the building 478 00:29:20,726 --> 00:29:23,566 of a gym annex on part of the site. 479 00:29:23,566 --> 00:29:26,476 It was not the site of the actual shootings 480 00:29:27,276 --> 00:29:31,086 but it was close enough that geographically it's interesting 481 00:29:31,156 --> 00:29:32,886 in how I think it really altered -- 482 00:29:32,946 --> 00:29:36,296 It was interesting with one narrator I'll show you 483 00:29:36,356 --> 00:29:39,506 where the landscape was physically altered. 484 00:29:40,396 --> 00:29:43,006 A lot of legal cases throughout the '70s: 485 00:29:43,886 --> 00:29:50,066 Krause versus Rhodes, 1978-1979. 486 00:29:50,696 --> 00:29:55,286 The trial by all accounts was something of a farce. 487 00:29:55,536 --> 00:30:00,586 The Guard kind of issued a non-apology apology 488 00:30:00,696 --> 00:30:04,106 and there was a very low sum of money that was given 489 00:30:04,426 --> 00:30:07,896 to the families of the dead students as well 490 00:30:07,896 --> 00:30:10,646 as the wounded students. 491 00:30:11,876 --> 00:30:17,186 Memorialization is a theme we also cover in our book. 492 00:30:17,266 --> 00:30:19,696 There was a lot of debate of whether 493 00:30:19,726 --> 00:30:22,856 to memorialize the shootings at all. 494 00:30:23,496 --> 00:30:26,376 There was even question whether the University would survive. 495 00:30:26,626 --> 00:30:28,216 They talked about turning it 496 00:30:28,216 --> 00:30:34,076 into a mental institution in the early 1970s. 497 00:30:34,496 --> 00:30:37,736 They even wanted to change it from the University 498 00:30:37,736 --> 00:30:39,766 of Kent State to Kent. 499 00:30:39,766 --> 00:30:44,036 And then there was finally a memorial design competition 500 00:30:44,036 --> 00:30:49,286 that turned into yet another debacle of the late '80s 501 00:30:49,406 --> 00:30:51,856 where the original winner of the design competition, 502 00:30:51,856 --> 00:30:55,816 he ended up being a Canadian, which I guess you had 503 00:30:55,816 --> 00:31:02,086 to be a citizen of the United States to win. 504 00:31:02,246 --> 00:31:03,796 So they got the one that came in second. 505 00:31:03,796 --> 00:31:07,706 And as you can see, it's pretty a lot of narrators talk 506 00:31:07,736 --> 00:31:10,596 about how it's a pretty uninspiring design. 507 00:31:11,706 --> 00:31:14,256 So there was a lot of that. 508 00:31:14,346 --> 00:31:17,246 But I think things have, as I mentioned, 509 00:31:17,816 --> 00:31:21,056 I think the memorialization has improved significantly. 510 00:31:21,816 --> 00:31:26,286 Starting in or not starting but one key event was in 2010. 511 00:31:26,726 --> 00:31:28,796 There was an Ohio historical marker 512 00:31:29,546 --> 00:31:31,996 to officially acknowledge the site. 513 00:31:31,996 --> 00:31:37,206 I had a hand, I helped the faculty who worked behind this 514 00:31:37,316 --> 00:31:40,286 in scanning a lot of the images for the proposal. 515 00:31:40,586 --> 00:31:43,996 And now it's actually been declared a national landmark 516 00:31:43,996 --> 00:31:44,746 as well. 517 00:31:45,466 --> 00:31:47,466 And if anyone ever goes to Kent State, 518 00:31:47,466 --> 00:31:51,876 I highly recommend please go to the May 4 Visitors Center 519 00:31:52,336 --> 00:31:54,796 which officially opened in 2015. 520 00:31:54,796 --> 00:31:58,206 It is a tremendously informative 521 00:31:58,206 --> 00:32:01,716 and very moving permanent exhibition 522 00:32:01,966 --> 00:32:04,886 that you walk through. 523 00:32:05,036 --> 00:32:09,576 I think it really does more than anything else that's been done 524 00:32:09,676 --> 00:32:15,906 to educate students and anyone interested in this event 525 00:32:16,936 --> 00:32:17,786 in terms of what happened. 526 00:32:17,786 --> 00:32:20,986 Our book also gets into a lot of rumors, conspiracies 527 00:32:20,986 --> 00:32:23,306 or alternate theories which are just kind of interesting 528 00:32:23,596 --> 00:32:25,766 in subtopic in oral history. 529 00:32:26,536 --> 00:32:29,446 Eldon Fender, who's in the background there, 530 00:32:29,536 --> 00:32:33,746 is a generation I interviewed and he claimed 531 00:32:33,746 --> 00:32:39,316 that Jeffrey Miller, if you look at this here, 532 00:32:39,316 --> 00:32:44,586 Jeffrey Miller was much closer than he actually was 533 00:32:44,586 --> 00:32:47,766 and he claimed he saw him throwing rocks at the Guard 534 00:32:47,766 --> 00:32:49,726 and so on and so forth. 535 00:32:49,726 --> 00:32:52,506 And I think Mr. Fender was sincere 536 00:32:52,506 --> 00:32:55,676 but he's just factually wrong. 537 00:32:55,936 --> 00:33:00,696 There was at least 200 yards separating these two things. 538 00:33:00,696 --> 00:33:02,896 He was also wrong about what he said he was wearing 539 00:33:03,506 --> 00:33:04,416 at the time, too. 540 00:33:05,126 --> 00:33:08,276 And in Howard Means' book, 541 00:33:08,766 --> 00:33:12,036 one thing that's a little disappointing is the author does 542 00:33:12,036 --> 00:33:14,916 not challenge stories like this in any way. 543 00:33:14,916 --> 00:33:17,396 He just repeats them at face value. 544 00:33:17,856 --> 00:33:24,316 So in our book, you know we try to apply not to play gotcha 545 00:33:24,316 --> 00:33:26,886 with the narrators but when they did say something 546 00:33:26,886 --> 00:33:29,766 that was just factually wrong, it was important 547 00:33:30,256 --> 00:33:31,226 to correct those things. 548 00:33:31,476 --> 00:33:34,886 But I think it's interesting, too, in that if you see 549 00:33:34,886 --> 00:33:38,056 where Eldon Fender was standing right 550 00:33:38,056 --> 00:33:40,746 where the gym annex was built and I do feel 551 00:33:40,866 --> 00:33:43,686 like there's something to the idea 552 00:33:43,686 --> 00:33:46,606 of a sites landscaping altered 553 00:33:46,726 --> 00:33:49,526 and how it can perhaps even alter your memory 554 00:33:49,726 --> 00:33:50,796 or your interpretation. 555 00:33:51,566 --> 00:33:55,586 I also interviewed Catherine Delattre. 556 00:33:56,046 --> 00:33:57,466 You can't see her very well. 557 00:33:57,576 --> 00:34:02,346 This is when the Guard opened fire in the parking lot. 558 00:34:02,346 --> 00:34:05,346 Her boyfriend that became her husband is pushing her 559 00:34:05,446 --> 00:34:07,746 down in the background there. 560 00:34:08,306 --> 00:34:12,806 And there's a better photograph of her 561 00:34:12,806 --> 00:34:14,836 and her boyfriend behind Glenn Frank 562 00:34:14,966 --> 00:34:17,586 who was a geology professor and many credit 563 00:34:18,136 --> 00:34:20,226 with preventing more bloodshed. 564 00:34:21,286 --> 00:34:23,636 He basically begged the students who were very angry 565 00:34:23,836 --> 00:34:29,926 after the shootings, to stand down and eventually they did. 566 00:34:29,926 --> 00:34:32,686 And let's see. 567 00:34:32,686 --> 00:34:36,546 So almost as important as titles are subtitles. 568 00:34:36,546 --> 00:34:41,976 We tried to make our book you know we called it the 569 00:34:41,976 --> 00:34:45,546 "An Oral History" not "The Oral History. 570 00:34:45,546 --> 00:34:48,726 And that's because we really we didn't want to do sort 571 00:34:48,726 --> 00:34:52,346 of a case closed kind of book that you sometimes see. 572 00:34:52,346 --> 00:34:55,796 We wanted to open up avenues for further research. 573 00:34:55,796 --> 00:34:59,516 And I think there's all kinds of possibilities 574 00:34:59,516 --> 00:35:03,666 that resonate today, political activism, student protests, 575 00:35:03,966 --> 00:35:07,956 gun control, campus violence, campus response, 576 00:35:08,156 --> 00:35:11,906 and really just the whole narratives and counternarratives 577 00:35:12,026 --> 00:35:15,676 about the 60s which we see playing out White House, 578 00:35:16,756 --> 00:35:18,016 classrooms, and TV news and everything. 579 00:35:19,546 --> 00:35:24,946 So I think some other potential more specific topics 580 00:35:25,046 --> 00:35:27,626 that are worth noting is the events 581 00:35:27,686 --> 00:35:31,636 of Jackson State College on May 15, 1970. 582 00:35:32,586 --> 00:35:38,326 There were two students killed on that day, Phillip Gibbs, 583 00:35:38,706 --> 00:35:40,506 who was a junior, and James Earl Green, 584 00:35:40,506 --> 00:35:44,296 who was a high school senior, and 12 were wounded as well. 585 00:35:44,886 --> 00:35:50,016 But Jackson State is sort of the forgotten topic. 586 00:35:50,356 --> 00:35:52,496 There is no Library of Congress subject heading 587 00:35:52,566 --> 00:35:55,386 on Jackson State shootings. 588 00:35:55,386 --> 00:35:59,126 And it's really a subject that I think there's a lot of potential 589 00:35:59,926 --> 00:36:02,756 for research and study and publication. 590 00:36:03,766 --> 00:36:06,596 The annual commemoration at Kent makes a point 591 00:36:06,656 --> 00:36:09,446 of combining the Jackson State shootings 592 00:36:10,436 --> 00:36:12,506 with Kent State shootings together. 593 00:36:12,846 --> 00:36:14,496 But I think there's a lot of new terrain 594 00:36:14,576 --> 00:36:18,786 that people are going to talk about. 595 00:36:18,786 --> 00:36:22,366 In SJSC, one of my interests since I've been here 596 00:36:23,206 --> 00:36:27,466 and I realize, you know, wow, I have access to [inaudible] here. 597 00:36:27,736 --> 00:36:33,846 But it was a good fit for my interests 598 00:36:34,116 --> 00:36:38,396 with political activism and some of these events. 599 00:36:38,396 --> 00:36:39,916 So I started kind of looking in 600 00:36:39,916 --> 00:36:44,276 and seeing parallel what was happening in San Jose State 601 00:36:44,536 --> 00:36:46,146 at the same time as Kent State 602 00:36:46,146 --> 00:36:50,296 and how maybe Kent State was looked at from the point 603 00:36:50,296 --> 00:36:52,546 of view here in the Bay area. 604 00:36:53,266 --> 00:36:57,806 This is from President Hobert Burns' collection 605 00:36:59,076 --> 00:37:03,546 with the headline in July 4, 1969, 606 00:37:03,546 --> 00:37:08,586 where deans say campus unrest is decreasing was their prediction. 607 00:37:09,176 --> 00:37:14,006 And then in the Merc on April 18, 1970s, 608 00:37:14,526 --> 00:37:19,146 they talk about how they're praising San Jose State 609 00:37:19,146 --> 00:37:23,916 in saying unlike Stanford and Berkeley, in San Jose, 610 00:37:23,916 --> 00:37:27,956 in the third paragraph, "a small languid demonstration trickled 611 00:37:28,986 --> 00:37:32,246 off into a parade to St. James Park 612 00:37:32,406 --> 00:37:35,616 where speakers castigated the war in Vietnam briefly 613 00:37:35,616 --> 00:37:40,036 and then went on to other things." 614 00:37:40,036 --> 00:37:43,156 And so they're complimenting San Jose 615 00:37:43,156 --> 00:37:45,896 and President Burns was irate by this. 616 00:37:45,896 --> 00:37:48,486 He wrote the editorial board and said, you know, 617 00:37:48,486 --> 00:37:51,356 why don't you just invite people to protest here. 618 00:37:51,636 --> 00:37:53,886 And sure enough, two and a half weeks later, 619 00:37:53,886 --> 00:37:55,736 this is what's happening on campus. 620 00:37:55,736 --> 00:38:02,206 And it would kind of continue on. 621 00:38:02,436 --> 00:38:08,146 So in addition to headlines like this, I've also been kind 622 00:38:08,346 --> 00:38:12,406 of just looking at right now for references to Kent State. 623 00:38:12,456 --> 00:38:19,226 So there was an editorial on May 5th in the "Spartan Daily" is 624 00:38:20,026 --> 00:38:22,636 where this is from where they just kind 625 00:38:22,866 --> 00:38:25,276 of report the facts, mostly accurately. 626 00:38:25,926 --> 00:38:31,086 This is a letter from Hobert Burns to a Mr. Ross Cade 627 00:38:31,086 --> 00:38:34,266 who was angered that San Jose State 628 00:38:34,386 --> 00:38:37,416 and President Burns granted approval to lower the flag 629 00:38:37,456 --> 00:38:40,506 to half mast to honor the students 630 00:38:40,606 --> 00:38:42,006 who were killed at Kent State. 631 00:38:42,536 --> 00:38:47,286 So Burns defends this although at the very end, 632 00:38:47,446 --> 00:38:51,946 he does blame the Kent State shootings on irrational 633 00:38:54,156 --> 00:38:56,776 and irresponsible, radical revolutionaries. 634 00:38:56,776 --> 00:38:59,726 So, you know, that was -- That was fairly typical thing. 635 00:38:59,726 --> 00:39:02,986 And then this article, Kent State: How and Why, 636 00:39:04,136 --> 00:39:08,366 talks about the shootings and tolerant is spelled incorrectly 637 00:39:08,406 --> 00:39:09,976 but this is a very good article. 638 00:39:10,546 --> 00:39:15,506 It's well-written from somebody who lived closed to Kent I think 639 00:39:15,906 --> 00:39:17,846 from [inaudible] and he actually knew, 640 00:39:18,156 --> 00:39:22,776 he speaks from personal experience that there was 641 00:39:22,936 --> 00:39:24,956 in fact a lot of protests prior to 1970, 642 00:39:25,466 --> 00:39:28,296 that it should not have been a surprise necessarily 643 00:39:28,346 --> 00:39:28,746 that it happened. 644 00:39:29,566 --> 00:39:32,966 Political cartoon in the "Spartan Daily" 645 00:39:33,316 --> 00:39:37,776 as well although Nixon would be reelected in 1972. 646 00:39:39,046 --> 00:39:44,616 And eventually our small languid campus became the strike capital 647 00:39:45,116 --> 00:39:47,936 as set as strike headquarters. 648 00:39:48,046 --> 00:39:49,896 This was on May 11, 1970. 649 00:39:50,756 --> 00:39:51,976 There's no date there but it was on May 11th. 650 00:39:52,626 --> 00:39:58,336 So and the this editorial, despite the unfortunate title, 651 00:39:58,666 --> 00:40:01,946 it has, it's really thoughtful I think as it does 652 00:40:02,046 --> 00:40:04,546 combine whoever wrote it combines 653 00:40:04,546 --> 00:40:06,856 and connects Kent State with Jackson State. 654 00:40:07,056 --> 00:40:10,276 And it says, let's see. 655 00:40:10,386 --> 00:40:13,246 It says at the very end, 656 00:40:13,246 --> 00:40:14,966 it talks mainly about Jackson State. 657 00:40:15,236 --> 00:40:20,466 It says, talking about ending racism in America depends less 658 00:40:20,466 --> 00:40:22,326 on legislation than on change in attitude 659 00:40:22,446 --> 00:40:23,856 on the part of White America. 660 00:40:23,856 --> 00:40:26,226 Changing attitudes depend on moral leadership. 661 00:40:26,226 --> 00:40:29,026 The students of America now have a chance to provide 662 00:40:29,736 --> 00:40:30,666 that moral leadership. 663 00:40:30,776 --> 00:40:32,626 So I thought these things were really interesting 664 00:40:34,656 --> 00:40:35,816 and I look forward to continuing. 665 00:40:35,946 --> 00:40:38,926 So thank you. 666 00:40:39,516 --> 00:40:47,586 [ Applause ] 667 00:40:48,086 --> 00:40:51,906 This topic is so complicated, the bad thing is you have to, 668 00:40:51,906 --> 00:40:54,476 there are certain things you just don't have time to talk 669 00:40:54,556 --> 00:40:58,646 about but this is if I did not address something you would 670 00:40:58,646 --> 00:41:01,496 like to ask a question about or if you'd 671 00:41:01,496 --> 00:41:03,546 like for me to clarify something. 672 00:41:03,726 --> 00:41:04,156 Yes, sir? 673 00:41:04,726 --> 00:41:06,726 >> Just a quick question. 674 00:41:06,726 --> 00:41:07,786 Maybe I missed something. 675 00:41:07,786 --> 00:41:12,216 Why did the National Guard choose real bullets rather 676 00:41:12,246 --> 00:41:13,956 than tear gas or -- 677 00:41:14,786 --> 00:41:15,056 >> Craig Simpson, SJSU Special Collections and Archives: Yeah, 678 00:41:15,126 --> 00:41:16,906 well that's a good question. 679 00:41:16,906 --> 00:41:19,326 So they did fire tear gas initially 680 00:41:20,116 --> 00:41:23,936 and the wind was carrying the tear gas so far off the mark 681 00:41:24,376 --> 00:41:26,856 that students were picking up the tear gas cannisters 682 00:41:26,926 --> 00:41:27,716 and throwing them back. 683 00:41:27,786 --> 00:41:30,306 It was like volleying back and forth. 684 00:41:30,926 --> 00:41:33,346 So yeah, why did they use real bullets, 685 00:41:33,496 --> 00:41:34,786 that's a very good question. 686 00:41:35,216 --> 00:41:39,766 And that's something I don't have an answer to other 687 00:41:39,906 --> 00:41:43,976 than I think it ties into the [inaudible] policies 688 00:41:44,236 --> 00:41:46,996 that they were taking at the time to put down, 689 00:41:47,076 --> 00:41:49,576 starting to take down student protests. 690 00:41:55,406 --> 00:41:58,456 There's a microphone. 691 00:41:58,816 --> 00:41:58,986 Yes? [inaudible]. 692 00:41:59,336 --> 00:42:05,526 Sorry. I'll make sure people can hear. 693 00:42:07,646 --> 00:42:11,016 >> So you alluded to the difference between a monologue 694 00:42:11,206 --> 00:42:15,036 and oral history and you talked at the very beginning 695 00:42:15,136 --> 00:42:18,996 about peoples' memories and how they tend 696 00:42:18,996 --> 00:42:22,096 to the story changes in their mind. 697 00:42:22,096 --> 00:42:27,066 So how do you as a researcher and an oral historian work 698 00:42:27,906 --> 00:42:32,276 in that framework and try to adjust 699 00:42:32,376 --> 00:42:35,596 for inaccuracies and things like that? 700 00:42:35,596 --> 00:42:35,696 >> Craig Simpson, SJSU Special Collections and Archives: 701 00:42:35,696 --> 00:42:40,626 In the case of our book, that's one thing that we tried 702 00:42:40,626 --> 00:42:45,716 to do was once we decided that it wasn't just going 703 00:42:45,716 --> 00:42:50,876 to be 50 narrators talking but that we were going 704 00:42:50,946 --> 00:42:55,326 to insert ourselves in an area so to speak. 705 00:42:55,326 --> 00:42:57,946 Then it became an idea of sort of balancing, 706 00:42:58,666 --> 00:43:01,126 trying to balance what the narrators were saying 707 00:43:01,826 --> 00:43:03,836 and just cross checking it I guess 708 00:43:04,396 --> 00:43:05,696 with the historical record. 709 00:43:06,206 --> 00:43:09,716 And some things are just factually there like the example 710 00:43:09,886 --> 00:43:13,516 that I gave of Eldon Fender. 711 00:43:13,816 --> 00:43:17,196 There's no ambiguity with that. 712 00:43:18,046 --> 00:43:20,266 He's just plain wrong on that. 713 00:43:20,696 --> 00:43:24,276 And we were initially -- But initially I think more for me 714 00:43:24,276 --> 00:43:28,136 than for Greg I think because when you interview these 715 00:43:28,136 --> 00:43:31,986 narrators, you get attached to them and you don't want -- 716 00:43:31,986 --> 00:43:34,796 I was initially I think a little reluctant 717 00:43:34,976 --> 00:43:38,026 to be critical at first. 718 00:43:38,026 --> 00:43:40,536 And Tom, who was one of our readers, 719 00:43:41,216 --> 00:43:45,656 he gave us some good advice and got on us and told us 720 00:43:45,656 --> 00:43:49,936 to be more critical and not just with him but with everyone. 721 00:43:50,166 --> 00:43:55,266 So I think you know oral history it's one piece of the puzzle. 722 00:43:55,266 --> 00:44:01,166 It has things that regular historical records 723 00:44:01,276 --> 00:44:03,426 and documentation don't. 724 00:44:03,786 --> 00:44:06,816 Also, documents and records can lie as well 725 00:44:06,976 --> 00:44:08,286 or they could be wrong. 726 00:44:09,036 --> 00:44:12,266 But I think being able to 727 00:44:12,456 --> 00:44:15,396 but then the reverse can be very true as well. 728 00:44:16,026 --> 00:44:18,266 So it's again in the case of our book, 729 00:44:18,266 --> 00:44:21,556 it was a difficult balance to achieve. 730 00:44:22,016 --> 00:44:24,796 Whenever I go back and read it, I'm like ah, 731 00:44:24,886 --> 00:44:27,416 there's always something else that I wish I had caught 732 00:44:28,036 --> 00:44:29,996 or made a little bit more clearly. 733 00:44:29,996 --> 00:44:31,456 But that's kind of how we [inaudible]. 734 00:44:31,456 --> 00:44:31,816 Yes. 735 00:44:35,576 --> 00:44:39,156 >> You showed us on the photographs some of the people 736 00:44:39,156 --> 00:44:41,076 that you interviewed and they were all students 737 00:44:41,256 --> 00:44:44,536 and from presumably the [inaudible] 738 00:44:46,276 --> 00:44:49,206 and victims [inaudible] how to track down but you mentioned 739 00:44:49,206 --> 00:44:51,876 that it's easy to track down the people who were 740 00:44:51,876 --> 00:44:54,846 in the National Guard because there must be records of service 741 00:44:54,846 --> 00:44:56,736 and who was there on that day. 742 00:44:57,226 --> 00:45:00,686 Granted, they might be a bit older than the students 743 00:45:00,686 --> 00:45:02,466 or many might not be around 744 00:45:02,466 --> 00:45:05,496 but [inaudible] chief of police, et cetera. 745 00:45:05,896 --> 00:45:07,546 Did you also interview some of them? 746 00:45:08,286 --> 00:45:08,546 >> Craig Simpson, SJSU Special Collections and Archives: Yeah, 747 00:45:08,746 --> 00:45:13,536 so there are in the total which last I checked is 748 00:45:13,536 --> 00:45:16,326 about 110, 120 interviews. 749 00:45:16,796 --> 00:45:19,746 There are three with National Guardsmen 750 00:45:20,426 --> 00:45:22,346 and one of them is anonymous. 751 00:45:22,346 --> 00:45:28,986 There was an anonymous one I think in 1990 or '95 752 00:45:29,286 --> 00:45:31,466 and I interviewed two more after that. 753 00:45:31,746 --> 00:45:33,436 The Guard are very easy to track down. 754 00:45:33,436 --> 00:45:35,046 The problem is they do not talk. 755 00:45:35,826 --> 00:45:39,656 And in fact, the three that had been interviewed, 756 00:45:39,816 --> 00:45:42,526 none of them were actually a part 757 00:45:42,586 --> 00:45:46,426 of that group that opened fire. 758 00:45:46,846 --> 00:45:50,556 The closest would be there was one Guardsman I interviewed 759 00:45:50,686 --> 00:45:56,806 who tried to plant a gun on Jeffrey Miller, on his body, 760 00:45:56,806 --> 00:46:00,356 and he was called out for it in court. 761 00:46:00,446 --> 00:46:02,206 But they do not talk. 762 00:46:02,376 --> 00:46:05,516 We attempted to do so but they just don't. 763 00:46:05,516 --> 00:46:10,106 And that's, you know, they have their reasons for doing that. 764 00:46:10,396 --> 00:46:13,536 It's unfortunate from a historical perspective. 765 00:46:13,856 --> 00:46:17,086 And even there's another book called "I Was There" 766 00:46:17,086 --> 00:46:20,346 which is written by a Guardsman. 767 00:46:20,766 --> 00:46:24,366 He was on campus but he wasn't there. 768 00:46:24,506 --> 00:46:26,386 He did not actually witness the shootings. 769 00:46:26,386 --> 00:46:32,456 So yeah, it's one of those gaps that we just have to deal with. 770 00:46:32,746 --> 00:46:32,876 Yes? 771 00:46:32,876 --> 00:46:41,956 >> I want to thank you for the inclusion of the Jackson State 772 00:46:42,756 --> 00:46:45,196 because that's a very important episode 773 00:46:45,296 --> 00:46:51,276 that usually does get bypassed in the photos. 774 00:46:51,336 --> 00:46:55,906 Is there any work being done on oral history 775 00:46:55,966 --> 00:47:03,946 of San Jose State during the months 776 00:47:03,946 --> 00:47:08,066 up to the famous Olympic [inaudible] 777 00:47:09,016 --> 00:47:11,466 by Tommie Smith and John Carlos? 778 00:47:11,466 --> 00:47:12,026 >> Craig Simpson, SJSU Special Collections and Archives: 779 00:47:12,026 --> 00:47:14,766 That's a great idea for one. 780 00:47:15,326 --> 00:47:20,826 Harry Edwards has been involved in a lot of that. 781 00:47:21,496 --> 00:47:24,616 But that's an excellent idea for one. 782 00:47:24,616 --> 00:47:29,196 One thing I want to do is which my [inaudible] 783 00:47:29,466 --> 00:47:35,636 but one thing I want to do is to put all of the oral histories 784 00:47:35,636 --> 00:47:40,246 that we have in our collection or as many as we can online. 785 00:47:40,826 --> 00:47:43,516 We have excellent oral histories that are not relating 786 00:47:43,516 --> 00:47:45,316 to that topic specifically 787 00:47:45,316 --> 00:47:47,996 but there's the Chicago oral history. 788 00:47:47,996 --> 00:47:50,346 There's the Indian diaspora [inaudible] working 789 00:47:50,776 --> 00:47:55,146 on a great oral history project kind of tying into that. 790 00:47:55,236 --> 00:48:00,396 And I'm definitely hoping based on my research here 791 00:48:00,476 --> 00:48:03,826 to definitely other possibilities so we're back 792 00:48:04,766 --> 00:48:09,516 to this during that period. 793 00:48:09,516 --> 00:48:12,496 >> So you had mentioned that in a second phase of the collection 794 00:48:12,696 --> 00:48:14,966 that you had more focused questions for your interviews. 795 00:48:15,246 --> 00:48:18,206 I was wondering about the nature of those and how you came 796 00:48:18,206 --> 00:48:20,206 up with those and how that affected 797 00:48:20,206 --> 00:48:22,906 or may have impacted the thematic development. 798 00:48:23,016 --> 00:48:23,176 >> Craig Simpson, SJSU Special Collections and archives: 799 00:48:23,176 --> 00:48:25,866 In fact, I can give you an example. 800 00:48:25,866 --> 00:48:27,966 Sorry. We ran a little short on time. 801 00:48:27,966 --> 00:48:29,906 I was hoping to show you this. 802 00:48:30,126 --> 00:48:32,776 This is Catherine Delattre whose photos I showed you. 803 00:48:33,676 --> 00:48:35,476 This is a transcript 804 00:48:35,476 --> 00:48:39,866 of an interview I did with her in 2008. 805 00:48:40,736 --> 00:48:47,146 And what I tried to do focusing my questions was I always come 806 00:48:47,146 --> 00:48:50,006 up with about eight to ten questions and a couple 807 00:48:50,066 --> 00:48:50,826 of them are just kind 808 00:48:50,826 --> 00:48:53,976 of straightforward biographical questions in the beginning. 809 00:48:54,646 --> 00:48:56,106 That accomplishes two things. 810 00:48:56,106 --> 00:48:58,266 Number one, it's important for the metadata 811 00:48:58,876 --> 00:49:01,236 of the oral histories and it also kind 812 00:49:01,376 --> 00:49:04,186 of relaxes the narrators because 813 00:49:05,056 --> 00:49:07,246 many of these interviews are pretty emotional 814 00:49:07,666 --> 00:49:09,706 and so just kind of getting them started talking 815 00:49:09,706 --> 00:49:14,076 about themselves rather than in kind of the early era just sort 816 00:49:14,076 --> 00:49:17,646 of plunging in, what were you doing on May 4. 817 00:49:18,046 --> 00:49:19,416 I wanted to sort of give them a chance 818 00:49:19,646 --> 00:49:21,096 to think about those things. 819 00:49:21,096 --> 00:49:25,246 And then so like with Catherine here, I always, you know, 820 00:49:25,246 --> 00:49:27,506 would just ask them where they were born and when they went 821 00:49:27,536 --> 00:49:30,106 to Kent State, what made them decide to go to Kent State. 822 00:49:31,336 --> 00:49:33,056 One thing about the late '60s, 823 00:49:33,206 --> 00:49:35,846 one reason Kent State really exploded 824 00:49:35,846 --> 00:49:40,296 with student population is because it stopped being kind 825 00:49:40,296 --> 00:49:42,976 of a local campus or regional campus and 826 00:49:43,586 --> 00:49:45,226 they had many more students coming 827 00:49:45,296 --> 00:49:48,026 in from the East Coast in particular. 828 00:49:48,776 --> 00:49:54,476 So but Catherine, I believe, was an native of northeast Ohio. 829 00:49:55,046 --> 00:49:57,386 And then I just of asked them to talk 830 00:49:57,386 --> 00:49:59,976 about their impressions of the university. 831 00:50:01,116 --> 00:50:02,736 And then I told them they could kind 832 00:50:02,736 --> 00:50:05,776 of start wherever they would like with May 4. 833 00:50:05,776 --> 00:50:11,696 And Catherine started with the events on Thursday as well. 834 00:50:11,756 --> 00:50:12,956 And then you know what? 835 00:50:12,996 --> 00:50:14,426 I do have time. 836 00:50:14,426 --> 00:50:19,326 I'm just going to play a little part of this where she talks 837 00:50:19,586 --> 00:50:21,686 about some things at the end. 838 00:50:21,686 --> 00:50:23,566 I always ask a question at the end where I would say, 839 00:50:23,566 --> 00:50:25,156 is there anything else you would like to share 840 00:50:25,156 --> 00:50:26,876 and this is what she said. 841 00:50:27,576 --> 00:50:29,246 Let me see if I can turn it up. 842 00:50:31,166 --> 00:50:33,706 >> I think there was a part of me that waited for years, 843 00:50:33,936 --> 00:50:36,296 I was always looking for there to be somebody 844 00:50:36,296 --> 00:50:39,316 to take the blame for this. 845 00:50:40,566 --> 00:50:43,616 And that was a hard thing to accept all those years 846 00:50:43,826 --> 00:50:47,086 as a student and having been there 847 00:50:47,086 --> 00:50:50,976 and no one was really punished for what happened, 848 00:50:52,366 --> 00:50:55,526 that those poor families, it took years and years and years 849 00:50:55,816 --> 00:51:01,776 for the families of the students who were killed to get anything. 850 00:51:02,496 --> 00:51:04,156 And I can't even imagine what it must've been 851 00:51:04,506 --> 00:51:06,906 like for those parents, all those years. 852 00:51:07,596 --> 00:51:11,906 And I think finally there was money paid 853 00:51:12,206 --> 00:51:14,526 to the families, right. 854 00:51:15,596 --> 00:51:16,906 But, you know, I mean 855 00:51:16,906 --> 00:51:23,006 at the time you just you didn't know exactly what had happened 856 00:51:23,006 --> 00:51:23,876 and you wanted to know. 857 00:51:24,336 --> 00:51:26,966 I remember that the FBI came, I was picked 858 00:51:26,966 --> 00:51:29,966 out from photographs [inaudible] and I had 859 00:51:30,046 --> 00:51:32,406 came home from school one day or not from school 860 00:51:32,406 --> 00:51:33,976 but school was closed and we were doing 861 00:51:34,046 --> 00:51:36,956 research and I came home and there was an official sign 862 00:51:37,036 --> 00:51:38,976 from the FBI that said, 863 00:51:39,346 --> 00:51:41,216 I forget but I wish I still had that piece 864 00:51:41,216 --> 00:51:41,896 of paper but it got lost. 865 00:51:42,016 --> 00:51:42,136 >> Craig Simpson, SJSU Special Collections 866 00:51:42,136 --> 00:51:42,976 and Archives: It was on your door? 867 00:51:43,326 --> 00:51:44,126 >> It was on my door. 868 00:51:44,536 --> 00:51:49,626 Agent so and so would like to speak to you. 869 00:51:50,586 --> 00:51:53,256 You must report at this time, in this building, 870 00:51:53,256 --> 00:51:55,166 on campus, for this interview. 871 00:51:55,166 --> 00:51:55,976 And it was kind of weird. 872 00:51:56,256 --> 00:51:58,336 Nobody came and got me and they just 873 00:51:58,336 --> 00:52:01,806 like put it on a nail on my door. 874 00:52:02,286 --> 00:52:06,976 And I went in there to this interview. 875 00:52:07,246 --> 00:52:07,866 I was so nervous. 876 00:52:07,866 --> 00:52:09,266 And I decided that you know I asked some people 877 00:52:09,266 --> 00:52:13,516 who had been interviewed what happened. 878 00:52:13,516 --> 00:52:16,986 Oh, they're just going to show you like a zillion photographs 879 00:52:17,016 --> 00:52:17,976 and they want you to identify people. 880 00:52:18,126 --> 00:52:21,616 So I went in there and literally I swear there were more 881 00:52:21,616 --> 00:52:24,766 than 350 photographs to go through. 882 00:52:24,766 --> 00:52:28,046 And he sat there while I looked at every single picture 883 00:52:28,076 --> 00:52:28,976 and he said I want you to tell me, 884 00:52:29,366 --> 00:52:31,026 point out the people you know. 885 00:52:31,526 --> 00:52:39,136 And I told him I probably did, I think I did 886 00:52:39,136 --> 00:52:40,216 but you know I'm not going to say anything. 887 00:52:41,226 --> 00:52:43,976 And it just -- And he didn't really talk. 888 00:52:44,096 --> 00:52:47,236 He just sat there as if you know like where you're sitting 889 00:52:47,236 --> 00:52:48,976 and just stared at me intensely. 890 00:52:49,046 --> 00:52:52,226 I was very uncomfortable but I think that was his intention was 891 00:52:52,316 --> 00:52:53,576 to make me very uncomfortable. 892 00:52:54,066 --> 00:52:55,406 And then he did ask me questions. 893 00:52:55,406 --> 00:52:58,716 He asked me if I was involved in -- 894 00:52:58,746 --> 00:52:59,976 He did ask very specific questions about the 895 00:53:00,046 --> 00:53:04,386 four days and if I had been involved in anything other 896 00:53:04,756 --> 00:53:05,976 than in these photos [inaudible]. 897 00:53:06,336 --> 00:53:13,346 And what any groups that I had been involved 898 00:53:13,676 --> 00:53:15,106 with [inaudible] anyone to know about outside agitators 899 00:53:15,136 --> 00:53:15,976 if I knew of anybody on campus. 900 00:53:16,376 --> 00:53:19,866 He had a list of questions but and that was it. 901 00:53:20,086 --> 00:53:21,716 I never heard from him again. 902 00:53:22,016 --> 00:53:22,826 >> Craig Simpson, SJSU Special Collections 903 00:53:22,826 --> 00:53:23,646 and Archives: Any other questions? 904 00:53:25,596 --> 00:53:28,046 >> I'm curious as to you're talking 905 00:53:28,156 --> 00:53:31,936 about for the research questions for [inaudible] Kent State 906 00:53:31,936 --> 00:53:36,536 and it seems that many of those are still relevant. 907 00:53:37,146 --> 00:53:39,316 And I'm curious as to whether 908 00:53:39,316 --> 00:53:44,036 or not you think oral history would be harder or easier 909 00:53:44,066 --> 00:53:45,976 if Kent State shootings happened today 910 00:53:46,136 --> 00:53:50,916 where everyone carries around digital recording device and 911 00:53:50,916 --> 00:53:53,786 yet something the narrative gets taken away from those 912 00:53:53,836 --> 00:53:55,976 who are there [inaudible] 913 00:53:56,546 --> 00:53:57,666 UC Davis [inaudible] incidents 914 00:53:57,756 --> 00:54:00,696 which became memes on almost instantly. 915 00:54:00,896 --> 00:54:04,886 So what do you think about that? 916 00:54:05,226 --> 00:54:05,356 >> Craig Simpson, SJSU Special Collections and Archives: Yeah, 917 00:54:05,356 --> 00:54:07,286 that's a tough question. 918 00:54:07,846 --> 00:54:11,596 You know, the filmmaker Brian De Palma says the camera tells 24 919 00:54:11,686 --> 00:54:16,886 lies a second in response to the 24 truths a second. 920 00:54:17,546 --> 00:54:19,896 And even I don't know -- 921 00:54:19,896 --> 00:54:22,786 Let me answer that just a little bit backing up. 922 00:54:22,976 --> 00:54:29,516 So as I mentioned, at Kent State the shootings occurred in front 923 00:54:29,576 --> 00:54:30,676 of the School for Journalism. 924 00:54:31,486 --> 00:54:33,596 Everyone had a camera out there. 925 00:54:33,726 --> 00:54:36,876 Everyone. There was an 8-millimeter film taken. 926 00:54:37,386 --> 00:54:40,536 There was -- Some of you may have heard there was an 927 00:54:41,186 --> 00:54:41,976 audio recording. 928 00:54:42,046 --> 00:54:45,796 It was discovered but it was actually used in the trial 929 00:54:46,006 --> 00:54:47,606 but it was at the Yale archive. 930 00:54:48,066 --> 00:54:50,766 There's an audio recording where some claim 931 00:54:50,766 --> 00:54:54,766 that they hear maybe a roar of fire. 932 00:54:55,456 --> 00:54:57,266 It's a little inconclusive. 933 00:54:57,266 --> 00:54:59,976 I kind of wish that the person who said that, you know, 934 00:55:00,446 --> 00:55:03,126 I think I hear something but it's kind 935 00:55:03,126 --> 00:55:06,806 of like do I really hear it or did he suggest it. 936 00:55:07,096 --> 00:55:11,546 I don't know because it was so loud and noisy. 937 00:55:11,546 --> 00:55:13,806 But I think oral histories done today, 938 00:55:13,866 --> 00:55:18,976 I think the standards are very much exactly the same. 939 00:55:19,656 --> 00:55:22,406 I don't think it necessarily changes. 940 00:55:22,976 --> 00:55:26,316 I think in some ways the more media you have, 941 00:55:26,316 --> 00:55:28,856 the more confusing it gets. 942 00:55:29,196 --> 00:55:32,776 Even the JFK assassination, there's a ton of footage on that 943 00:55:32,816 --> 00:55:36,246 and there's a million different interpretations about it. 944 00:55:36,346 --> 00:55:40,386 So I think again just kind of if I did interviews today 945 00:55:40,686 --> 00:55:42,996 about an event that happened here, I wouldn't, 946 00:55:43,186 --> 00:55:46,946 I don't think I would proceed any differently 947 00:55:47,026 --> 00:55:50,376 and I would certainly use written documentation 948 00:55:50,726 --> 00:55:53,646 to collaborate my sources and corroborate. 949 00:55:53,676 --> 00:55:54,996 >> Carl Kemnitz, Provost & Senior Vice President 950 00:55:55,026 --> 00:55:56,076 of Academic Affairs: I think we have time 951 00:55:56,106 --> 00:55:56,976 for one more, if anyone has one. 952 00:56:01,746 --> 00:56:04,536 You have one. 953 00:56:04,836 --> 00:56:05,906 >> What's your next project? 954 00:56:05,906 --> 00:56:06,476 >> Craig Simpson, SJSU Special Collections and Archives: 955 00:56:06,476 --> 00:56:07,876 That's what I'm working on. 956 00:56:08,076 --> 00:56:13,206 So again, that's kind of what I showed here was I think a good 957 00:56:13,276 --> 00:56:18,336 followup is connecting, kind of seeing events here 958 00:56:18,336 --> 00:56:22,896 in the South Bay and maybe how they compare to events at Kent, 959 00:56:22,896 --> 00:56:25,286 how they compare to other events going 960 00:56:25,286 --> 00:56:26,686 around in the Bay at the time. 961 00:56:27,206 --> 00:56:34,266 I think -- Again, I'm really interested in how and the impact 962 00:56:34,346 --> 00:56:38,736 of Kent State on student protests like Tom talked 963 00:56:38,736 --> 00:56:42,186 about because again it's a pretty big myth 964 00:56:42,276 --> 00:56:46,536 that it ended protests which you hear sometimes. 965 00:56:46,986 --> 00:56:51,076 There is a collection at Kent called the Campus Strike 966 00:56:51,076 --> 00:56:56,206 Collection where there were campus strikes that just came 967 00:56:56,206 --> 00:56:58,846 up all over the place and I was interested 968 00:56:58,896 --> 00:57:00,706 because I didn't know what I was going to find. 969 00:57:01,086 --> 00:57:03,946 But when I looked at Hobert Burns' papers and some 970 00:57:03,976 --> 00:57:07,976 of the administrative papers from the late '60s and 1970, 971 00:57:08,686 --> 00:57:11,416 it was really interesting I think 972 00:57:11,966 --> 00:57:13,966 to find some connections and 973 00:57:16,076 --> 00:57:16,376 [inaudible] of this event. 974 00:57:16,376 --> 00:57:17,576 So yeah, we'll see where it goes. 975 00:57:18,836 --> 00:57:19,786 Thank you very much. 976 00:57:20,516 --> 00:57:25,500 [ Applause ]