1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:07,120 Hi everybody, my name is Professor Ryan Skinnell  i'm an associate professor in the english and   2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:14,080 comparative literature department at San  Jose State University on the original hybrid   3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:20,960 University Scholar Series presentation was held  on September 22nd 2021 but due to campus-wide   4 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:25,920 internet connectivity issue we experienced  frequent disruption to the virtual connection   5 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:31,280 so this is a re-recording of my original  presentation including questions that were   6 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:43,840 asked in person and via Zoom before I get started  we'd like to begin with a land acknowledgement. 7 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,920 [Video] While we gather at San José State  University, we are gathered on the ethnohistoric   8 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:56,560 tribal territory of the Thámien Ohlone, who were  the direct ancestors of the lineages enrolled in   9 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:03,440 the Muwekma Ohlone Tribe, and who were missionized  into Missions Santa Clara, San José and Dolores. 10 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:09,200 The lands on which San José State University  is established was and continues to be of   11 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:14,720 significance to the Muwekma Ohlone Tribe. We  also recognize that the ancestors of the Muwekma   12 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:20,720 Ohlone constructed and maintained the three Bay  Area missions. Our campus extends to surrounding   13 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:25,680 areas that held a tuppentak, a traditional  roundhouse which were once located at the   14 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:35,920 historic ‘Lopé Yñigo’s Landgrant Rancho Posolmi  y Pozitas de las Animas (Little Wells of Souls),   15 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:42,960 and also Marcello, Pio and Cristobal’s Land  grant Rancho Ulistac, which were places of   16 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:49,840 celebration and religious ceremonies, as well  as nearby ancestral heritage “shellmounds,”   17 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:54,720 that served as the Tribe’s traditional  cemetery sites and territorial monuments. 18 00:01:54,720 --> 00:02:00,240 San José State University also desires to  honor the military service of the Muwekma   19 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:06,640 who have honorably served overseas during  World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam,   20 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:11,200 Desert Storm, Iraq and who are still serving  in the United States Armed Forces today. 21 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:18,800 Thank you. [end of video] 22 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,400 all right thank you very much  now i'm going to share my screen 23 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:39,200 and i'll begin so thanks again i wanted to thank  uh Provost Del Casino for the invitation and   24 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:46,080 for the kind intro that he gave on September  22nd he wasn't able to make it today to give   25 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:52,880 it again but you'll just have to take my word for  it that it was a really good intro I also want to   26 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:58,560 thank Lesley Seacrist, Mariah Ramsour, Melanie Schlitzkis and the rest of their team for all   27 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:04,240 the work they did to make this function function  and also for the additional effort they put in   28 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:10,880 to get the re-recording arranged so I hope  you'll bear with me i know that previous   29 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:15,520 presenters have spoken extemporaneously from  their slides but I've written things down   30 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:21,440 because frankly the group of people who gathered  on the 22nd were intimidating to me and i was   31 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:27,600 anxious and i don't want you as somebody who may  be watching this later on to miss the opportunity   32 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:35,280 to see me anxious and uh intimidated i'm also  working with some kind of potentially provocative   33 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:41,520 material so i want to make sure that i do it  carefully which is why i have a script the irony   34 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:47,440 of me relying on a script will be even funnier as  the presentation goes on but in any case i do and   35 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:53,760 i'm going to try very hard not to get sucked into  drowning uh droning i definitely not planning to   36 00:03:53,760 --> 00:04:00,640 drown i'm trying not to get sucked into droning  if i do either drown or drone i apologize 37 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:11,040 my central concern today uh is this 20th  century fascist leaders six of whom are   38 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:17,920 represented in this slide so mussolini hitler  and others were notorious liars they lied   39 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,880 about big things about little things they told  obvious lies to people who knew they were lying   40 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:30,560 and yet millions of people trusted them they built  that trust over time even when they lied openly   41 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:37,280 and egregiously that trust turned into large-scale  support and that support eventually landed some   42 00:04:37,280 --> 00:04:42,880 of them in power and even in places where fascists  didn't come to power in france and britain and the   43 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:49,760 u.s for example there were significant powerful  fascist movements in the 1920s 30s and 40s   44 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:57,360 and in fact there still are in many cases fascists  and neo-fascists continue to enjoy a reputation   45 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:03,440 for being honest trustworthy and straightforward  despite ever mounting evidence that they traffic   46 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:10,960 constantly in misinformation disinformation and  outright lies so my goal today is to explain why   47 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:18,640 in good and faithful academic fashion i'll  begin uh with some briefish definitions   48 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:27,280 the first is a rhetoric rhetoric itself the word  is more than two millennia old uh and many of the   49 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:33,840 concepts that it names are even older than that  or rather get sucked into the um the different   50 00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:38,240 arguments about what it means i'm just going to  use the definition that i have here on the slide   51 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:43,040 which is language or and or symbols that people  use to persuade one another to think believe and   52 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:48,880 act in certain ways and if i'm being honest today  i'm really only going to talk about language not   53 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:53,680 so much the symbols even though fascist symbols  are fascinating on their in their own right   54 00:05:55,040 --> 00:06:02,720 so working from this definition um rhetoric  obviously refers to like campaign speeches for   55 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:08,240 example which are overtly rhetorical and that they  try and get they try and persuade people to vote   56 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:14,640 in a certain way but at the same time a website's  back in infrastructure is also rhetorical   57 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:21,840 albeit covertly in that it encourages certain  kinds of user behavior it persuades people to   58 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:28,240 engage with websites in certain ways so for  example um on facebook you are encouraged to   59 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:34,960 like things uh and on twitter you're encouraged  to share things and that is a sort of persuasive   60 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,440 activity encouraged by the the  website infrastructure itself   61 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:47,040 even the choice of a an associate professor  talking about fascist rhetoric deciding to wear   62 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:55,680 a hawaiian shirt in his re-recording of the  of his presentation is rhetorical in that it   63 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:01,840 encourages people who are watching this to view me  in a particular way somebody who's fun-loving and   64 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:08,160 and also brilliant at the same time right  don't forget that people like me rhetoric   65 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:15,840 scholars study the complex ways that people  use persuasion in real ways in the real world   66 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:21,040 i know i'm probably already too much in  the weeds here um but as i said there are   67 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,960 conflicting definitions of rhetoric and i  want to make sure you know where i stand   68 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:29,840 in relation to rhetoric to understand  what i have to say about fascist rhetoric 69 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:38,000 you also need to know how i'm planning to define  fascism um if you know anything about research   70 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,200 or scholarship on fascism if you've ever read  any of it then you know that the definitions of   71 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:48,400 fascism are bitterly disputed and they've only  become more bitterly disputed in recent years   72 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:54,560 again i'm not planning to get sucked into  the debates but i do need to at least narrow   73 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:59,760 what i'm talking about because the term  exists in a wide field which ranges from   74 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:07,920 hopelessly expansive to suffocatingly narrow for  an example of the former we can look at a daily   75 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,720 a recent episode of the daily show  with correspondent jordan clepper   76 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:18,400 in which he went out and interviewed several  anti-vaccination activists about coveted mandates   77 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:25,680 one of the interviewees that that clepper talked  to he asked whether mandates were communist or   78 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:32,640 fascist and she said both and then she pivoted and  compared them to the holocaust so for that person   79 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:37,200 fascist doesn't have a specific historical  reference it means anything she dislikes   80 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:43,200 and that's you know common usage for anybody  who's been on the internet will be familiar with   81 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:49,440 at the other end of the spectrum there are people  who study fascism who maintain unnecessarily   82 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:55,600 strict standards for what counts as fascists it  has to be consistently ideological politically   83 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:04,560 coherent and ideally interwar european some people  including german journalist sebastian hafner   84 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:10,800 have argued that even nazis weren't fascists  and that quote hitler was nearer to stalin   85 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:18,400 than to mussolini and there are better and worse  versions of that argument but since hitler modeled   86 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:24,160 the nazi party on mussolini's fascists it's not  really defensible in its most extreme formulation   87 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:31,600 so rather than try and figure out a definition  of generic fascism you know elusive set of   88 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:38,480 characteristics based on ideology or goals  or style or hatreds or whatever i'm inclined   89 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:43,360 to take the rhetorical view that fascism  gets played out in language and symbols   90 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,920 more to the point here i'm inclined  to take fascists at their word   91 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,840 so within my definition i include people and  groups who identified themselves as fascists and   92 00:09:53,840 --> 00:10:01,680 or identified themselves with movements associated  with fascism including the nazis in america we had   93 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:08,000 america first in the christian front in the  1920s and 30s and 40s and in brazil there's   94 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:17,840 the aso integralist of brazilera and i don't want  to be the one to take away their claim to fascism 95 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:25,120 so with those definitions in place we can  turn to my main concern which is truth um   96 00:10:25,680 --> 00:10:32,800 in the origins of totalitarianism one of the great  chroniclers and philosophers of totalitarianism   97 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:39,920 honorary argues the following quote the ideal  subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced   98 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:45,520 nazi or the convinced communist but people for  whom the distinction between fact and fiction   99 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:52,720 and the distinction between true and false no  longer exists end quote so the question at hand is   100 00:10:52,720 --> 00:11:00,160 this how does a fascist leader persuade followers  that the the distinction between fact and fiction   101 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:06,400 true and false no longer exists whereas  most scholars of fascism proceeded on   102 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:12,080 the presumption that fascist leaders tricked  their constituents into believing falsehoods   103 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:19,120 and that the trick was accomplished primarily  by repeating lies um i'm gonna argue otherwise   104 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:25,520 the people who throw their lots in with fascists  are not stupid uneducated sheep they are not for   105 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:31,440 the most part evil conniving devils they are  not for the most part tricked or hypnotized   106 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:39,120 they are rather ordinary people seeking stability  safety and prosperity in uncertain times   107 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:45,040 and fascists have proven really adept at  convincing those people that fascism is the best   108 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:52,080 way to achieve those goals even if fascism is kind  of uh not itself desirable it can nevertheless   109 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,720 help them reach goals that they think are  important and that's why fascists are frightening   110 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:01,280 they're able to persuade quote-unquote  normal people to follow them   111 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,640 the way that they do this is with  rhetoric again language and symbols   112 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:14,960 more specifically fascist writers exploit an  inherent instability in liberal democracies which   113 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:21,440 has to do with an apparent incompatibility between  empirical truth on the one hand factual truth   114 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:28,960 or fact-based truth um and democratic compromise  on the other so i'll come back to that in a little   115 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:35,200 bit but for now it's uh important to note that  by exploiting this apparent incompatibility   116 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:42,400 between truth and compromise fascists are able  to amplify authenticity and sincerity as more   117 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:50,080 stable than either facts or democracy and that's  crucial consequently a key aspect of fascist   118 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:57,840 rhetoric is that truth is located in a speaker's  performance of sincerity a performance that can   119 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:05,840 be persuasive even when the speaker is lying and  even when the audience knows the speaker is lying 120 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:13,840 20th century fascists were renowned for their  lives propaganda misinformation and disinformation   121 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:19,760 and outright fabrication were powerful tools  in the ascension of fascism after world war   122 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:26,000 one they continue to be basic instruments of  fascist and neo-fascist politics to this day   123 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,760 and in pointing this out not  unreasonably many scholars   124 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,840 imply that fascists just had no regard  for truth that they were machiavellian   125 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:41,120 and but that's not the case that fascists  rejected truth outright rather fascist truth was   126 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:47,520 based on different premises than factual truths or  fact-based truths and it's critical to distinguish   127 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:52,720 these two truths if we want to understand how  fascists found popular support for their views 128 00:13:55,600 --> 00:14:02,560 whereas non-fascists and anti-fascists often due  to facts and relationality as the basis of truth   129 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,200 and never more so than when they're trying  to prove that fascists are liars obviously   130 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:12,000 um fascists have always taken a more  promiscuous view of truth's essential   131 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:18,800 ingredients it's a it's a question of evidence  leading scholars in fascism studies including   132 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:24,800 robert paxon federico finkelstein and jason  stanley argue that for fascists truth was not   133 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:31,600 necessarily bound to empirical evidence it was  bound to whatever supported fascist successes   134 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:37,360 if you're god's chosen people you know if  you're pure and righteous and predestined   135 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,680 look at a few eggheads cooking chemicals  over a bunsen burner tell you about the truth   136 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:48,960 truth was what fascists said it was because it  affirmed their intuitive beliefs about the world   137 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:54,480 and especially about themselves and their  natural superiority we'll come back to that below 138 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:03,360 by contrast we'll we have what might be called  enlightenment truth or fact-based truths um one   139 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:09,920 of 20th century fascisms defining qualities was  an open assault on the enlightenment values of   140 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:16,480 empiricism skepticism and rationality i'm  not planning to get into the weeds of the   141 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,880 enlightenment i know people keep coming up to  me and saying can you please get into the weeds   142 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:27,600 of the enlightenment but i'm gonna resist again  suffice to say here empiricism and rationality   143 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:34,480 empiricism skepticism and rationality are the  cornerstones of truth in all post-enlightenment   144 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:40,320 liberal democracies there's the basis of  science and legislation and justice and so on   145 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,640 um at least in theory if not always in practice   146 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:50,560 but empiricism skepticism and rationality  are complicated values in democracies and   147 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,760 as such they're always open to criticism and the  subject of some discontent and disillusionment   148 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:02,640 the problem it's nicely encapsulated in the  common place that politicians lie um there's   149 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:07,360 a not totally unreasonable assumption that  politicians are a good deal worse than everyone   150 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:13,680 else everyone else maybe with the exception of  lawyers my apologies to lawyers if you're watching   151 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:20,640 the reason for this conventional wisdom about  politicians is that in matters of governance   152 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:26,320 practicality is often at odds with certainty  which is to say nothing of the assumption   153 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:31,680 of compromise moral compromise that it  takes to get elected in the first place 154 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:42,560 so on the one hand we've got scientific  empirical fact-based truths on the other hand   155 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:48,960 democracies are built fundamentally on argument  deliberation and compromise so the two are not   156 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,760 incompatible if you take for granted that  fact-based truth is filtered through human   157 00:16:53,760 --> 00:17:00,720 frailty enlightenment philosophers knew that they  knew that um truth is based on perspectives and   158 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:07,360 there's no single truth that everybody can ever  agree to uh scientists know the same truth is   159 00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:14,400 based on evidence and facts but there's no  specific truth no singular truth no religious   160 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:20,560 or god-based truth um that we ever get to at  least according to enlightenment philosophers   161 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:26,000 moreover whatever the supposed  truth even of empirical evidence   162 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:32,000 its consequences are differentially experienced  by different people in different circumstances   163 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:38,880 with different perspectives all of which can be  simultane simultaneously true and legitimate so   164 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:44,000 the example that i gave in my talk on  the 22nd was gas taxes in california   165 00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:50,960 how people experience those gas taxes  which are some of the highest in the   166 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:57,840 nation are very different from somebody who  lives say in san francisco um in a big city   167 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:02,960 and travels a lot on on those roads versus  somebody who lives in a farm community and   168 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:07,680 doesn't really see the benefits of a lot of the  road repair for example that those taxes go to   169 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:15,360 there's no empirical solution to resolve  human difference and again enlightenment   170 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:23,120 scholars knew that and like met philosophers and  that therefore by definition democracy requires   171 00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:30,560 reason and compromise to negotiate the handling  of empirical truths in the process of compromise   172 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:38,400 ideally everyone gets something they want but  nobody gets everything they want but compromise   173 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:45,120 is at least superficially inconsistent with  grounded definitions of empirical truth if a thing   174 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:51,200 is truly true it should not be compromised if it  can be compromised it cannot truly be true right   175 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:59,360 enter the fascists so the apparent paradox of  enlightenment truth and democratic compromise is   176 00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:07,440 right for critique and the fascists obliged hitler  for example asserted in 1932 that quote one cannot   177 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:13,040 require heroism from a nation when its political  leaders are ready to make any even the cheapest   178 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:20,160 compromise end quote it's a theme he returned to  again and again for hitler democracy cultivated   179 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:27,280 weakness because political parties essentially  would give up any of their ideological beliefs   180 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:32,480 in order to carve out a space at the table in  order to keep themselves in power and they made   181 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:37,440 compromises which meant that nobody ever had  to take responsibility for their own decisions   182 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:44,480 and so it was fundamentally democracy  compromise fundamentally corrupt other fascists   183 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:50,720 felt similarly in their withering  critiques of democratic parliamentarianism   184 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:57,360 fascists often characterize politicians  as venal careerists babbling imbeciles   185 00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:04,160 shameless self-dealers and feckless cowards any  of those phrases can be found applied to lots of   186 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:14,160 politicians at any time in history and democrat  to the fascists um democratic parliamentarians 187 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:23,040 their craveness emanated directly from the  paradoxes of democracy the valuing of multiple   188 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:29,040 perspectives compromise and deliberation were  fundamentally corrupt and fundamentally untruthful   189 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:38,080 despite those contradictions enlightenment truths  which is to say fact-based truth truth based on   190 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:44,240 that best evidence we have at the time is still  the main gauge of legitimacy in healthy democratic   191 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:50,400 political systems but an ailing and failing  democracies as fascists have amply demonstrated   192 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:56,800 in both distant and recent history empirical  truths can quickly be made to look like thin gruel   193 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:06,320 20th century fascists including mussolini  hitler and cornelius from romania contended   194 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:15,840 that the only empirical truth worth adhering to  was the social darwinian principle of struggle 195 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:24,080 in short the strong should dominate and  if necessary annihilate the weak all other   196 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:30,240 empirical truths were negotiable of course  rejecting empirical truth doesn't necessarily   197 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:35,680 mean rejecting truth altogether in fact it's a  process of replacement you can't just destroy   198 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,960 empirical truth and hope then to rise into power  because nobody nobody believes in truth at all   199 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,680 instead impact and attacking empirical truth is  only effective if there's something to replace it   200 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:54,720 so in place of fact-based truth then fascists  cleaved to a felt intuitive sense of truth   201 00:21:55,360 --> 00:22:00,480 which may or may not include facts or empirical  truths depending on the needs of the moment but   202 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:07,600 always was sort of built built into this sense of  uh it must be true it seems obviously true right   203 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:13,920 this felt sense of truth became the basis for  fascist recruitment organization adherence and   204 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:19,440 control and history has shown obviously  that it can have disastrous consequences   205 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,800 which is why it is so important to understand   206 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:30,800 there are three important interconnected  components of fascist truth the trans-historical   207 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:37,280 myth leadership principle and authenticity like  empiricism skepticism and rationalism and the   208 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:42,880 enlightenment none of these three components are  unique inventions of the fascists but their common   209 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:48,560 day combination is the cornerstone of fascist  truth from which it derives its persuasive power 210 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:57,760 the first component of fascist truth is  trans-historical myth also known as palin genesis 211 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:06,000 fascist truth is indexed to the needs or the  desires of a chosen people who are figured in   212 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:11,840 fascist rhetoric as descendants and inheritors  of a glorious trans-historical myth and anybody   213 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:19,120 who's not them is an enemy of that myth and  anybody who's seeking compromise democracy   214 00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:27,680 parliamentarianism is systematically attacking um  their grand inherited glory the italian fascists   215 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:33,120 for example are the roman legions the third  reich had the first two reichs that dated back   216 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:39,680 to the holy roman empire and in romania the iron  guard aligned themselves with early christians   217 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:47,840 in short the people were chosen in a mythic past  and people in the present are deeply nostalgic   218 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:54,960 for their glory as such they're reclaiming their  mythic legacy almost always with a major element   219 00:23:54,960 --> 00:24:00,960 of mythical purity that they have to protect  from being extinguished by the barbarian hordes   220 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,480 one reason this historical vision is so  persuasive is because it's never the pure   221 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:11,440 invention of the fascist leader rather it's  a kind of story that every nation develops   222 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:19,280 including in liberal democracies and crucially  often reinforced by fascism's opponents fascists   223 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:26,320 simplify and purify old jingoistic myths which  then can touch on often arms race over who's a   224 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:32,240 real citizen and everybody engages in it what  does it mean to really be a german what does it   225 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:39,920 mean to really be an italian fascism's mythic  past of course is pure myth but it provides   226 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:47,120 coherence and direction and familiarity in a world  that's becoming unanchored from empirical trees 227 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,640 the second component of fascist truth is the  leadership principle which hitler famously   228 00:24:54,640 --> 00:25:03,360 defined in the 1920s as unconditional authority  downwards and responsibility upwards in theory   229 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:08,800 fascist leaders emerge from the masses as the  best representatives of their collective beliefs   230 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:15,920 and desires in practice the leadership principle  results from a charismatic leader taking charge   231 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:22,400 and installing himself almost always himself as  the source of all truth through which through   232 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:27,920 whatever means necessary by one's persuasion  speeches here's where the big lie comes into   233 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:34,240 the mix in one of the most commonly cited  passages in my comps hitler ruminated on the   234 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:40,560 concept of the big lie which quote proceeded on  the sound principle that the magnitude of a lie   235 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:47,680 always contains a certain factor of credibility  end quote lie big people will believe that there's   236 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,640 at least some truth no matter how the bigger  the lie the more likely they are to believe that   237 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:59,040 there's some truth in effect the charismatic  leader proves the feebleness of democracy   238 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:06,160 by being immune to its assumptions you lie big you  resist shame and then you rebuke the liberals and   239 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:12,960 the democrats and parliamentarians for  not upholding their own values relative   240 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:21,120 to freedom of speech or tolerance of opposing  views the charismatic leader proves themselves   241 00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:26,320 worthy of leading by conspicuously exploiting  democracy's weaknesses for everyone to see   242 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:32,720 the leader then provides focus in fascist  movements not necessarily in what they say but   243 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:39,040 in their provocative exertions of power that  emphasize democracies inherent contradictions   244 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,480 and uncertainties and offer the leaders  consistency as the only real remedy 245 00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:50,720 the third and most rhetorically  interesting at least to me   246 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:57,520 component of fascist truth is authenticity which  derives directly from the trans-historical myth   247 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:03,520 and the leadership principle in circumstances  where empirical fact-based truth is attacked and   248 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:09,280 eroded and when it's primed to be replaced by  pale and genetic myths and charismatic leaders   249 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:16,320 fascist believers of potential recruits still  have to have some basis uh for deciding who the   250 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:21,520 leader should be and what myth they should  subscribe to and fascist rhetoric as i've   251 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:26,880 been arguing truth does not necessarily  derive from facts that's not the main   252 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:33,040 uh the most important kind of evidence right it  doesn't derive from facts empiricism or rational   253 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:40,720 deduction necessarily in its place the predominant  gauge of truth the predominant evidence for truth   254 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:48,400 is authenticity which emanates from the true  leader's will commitment and action they feel   255 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:54,240 things in their gut right like i know this is  true because i feel that it's true you got to   256 00:27:54,240 --> 00:28:01,200 trust your gut they have these intuitions they've  been spoken to perhaps by by god or they were   257 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:07,840 given a vision in any case their commitment and  their action and their will is what demonstrates   258 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:13,280 authenticity they know what's right without a  bunch of hair splitting academics and experts   259 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:21,120 telling them what's what authenticity is the  barometer of ultimate truth in fascist politics   260 00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:27,920 as such displays of authenticity and its proxies  sincerity conviction genuineness fanaticisms   261 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:35,280 are the only grounds for determining the true  leader fascists infidelity to factual truth   262 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:40,480 should have destroyed their political credibility  in a democracy and many of their critics wondered   263 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:45,440 why it didn't and the reason was that they  appeared to be authentic even when they were   264 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:52,960 lying and even when people knew they were lying so  again hitler offers us a particularly good example   265 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,560 i'm writing a book on hitler which is  why most of my examples are fermenter   266 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:04,880 before he was executed for war crimes in 1946  hans frank he was head of the general government   267 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,760 in poland during world war ii an administrator  of some of the most horrific atrocities of the   268 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:16,960 holocaust said this of hitler quote the first  thing you felt was that here was someone who   269 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:22,160 meant what he said who didn't want to convince  you of anything he didn't believe entirely himself   270 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:30,400 he spoke from the bottom of his own soul and all  of our souls end quote frank's sense that hitler   271 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:35,680 was trustworthy because he was authentic and  sincere was common among nazis throughout the   272 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:41,440 fuhrer's 25-year career germans trusted  hitler even when they knew he was lying   273 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:47,520 because of his remarkable ability to persuade  audiences that he was earnest to the very   274 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:53,840 end he was seen by many germans as sincere and  authentic even if he wasn't necessarily truthful   275 00:29:55,360 --> 00:30:06,000 the same was true of fascists fascist leaders more  generally mussolini kodriano oswald franco degrow   276 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:12,480 and a host of other fascist leaders or fascist  aspirants claim to be the best representatives   277 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:17,840 of an authentic national character and were  acknowledged as such by their adherents   278 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:23,520 fascists beliefs and ideologies are obviously  crucial for understanding their politics   279 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,560 but given the mendaciousness of their  behaviors and statements it's also important   280 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:36,240 to identify how they performed authenticity  irrespective of what they actually believed   281 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:41,360 the performance of authenticity like  questions of truth fortunately for us   282 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,680 has been of interest to rhetoricians for  millennia at least going back to aristotle 283 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:55,120 in the second century of common era hermogenes  of tarsus developed one of the most systematic   284 00:30:55,120 --> 00:31:01,440 theories of persuasive authenticity he's not  actually in this picture as far as i'm aware there   285 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:09,600 are no visual representations of hormones but this  is a teacher and his students uh from roughly the   286 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,400 time that hormones lived and so i figured you  know close enough for government work right 287 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:22,960 hermogenes definition of his theory i should say  of persuasive authenticity is still helpful for   288 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:29,120 understanding fascist rhetoric nearly 20 centuries  later building on the work of other classical   289 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:36,960 rhetoricians cicero uh aristotle uh quintillion  hermogenes contended that the appearance of   290 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:43,360 authenticity was a function of speaker's  performance so in oratory hermogenes contended   291 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:51,440 that sincerity or authenticity could be a i could  be demonstrated by adopting an unaffected style   292 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:57,280 which allows a speaker to appear spontaneous  emotionally invested animated and candid   293 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:04,560 promoganes argued that prepared remarks  made a speaker look calculating whereas   294 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:09,040 appearing to speak extemporaneously made  a speaker look impassioned and sincere   295 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,640 likewise knowing specific details about  complex policies makes a speaker look   296 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:21,600 too deliberate and maybe even devious whereas  making wild spontaneous non-factual statements   297 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:28,560 can make a a speaker appear authentically  overcome with passion or emotion in the pursuit   298 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:35,680 of persuasion according to hermogenes a speaker  is better served by being passionately wrong   299 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:44,640 than expertly right so here i will call your  attention just as i did to my audience on the 22nd   300 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,120 back to the beginning where i said it would be  funny that i was working from a script because   301 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:56,240 basically i'm encouraging you not to be  persuaded by me i am expertly right but   302 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:02,320 not passionately wrong enough so feel free to  chuckle to yourselves scornfully or otherwise   303 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:12,640 for hermogenes not having the facts was not an  obstacle to persuasion and it was even potentially   304 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:18,960 a powerful way to demonstrate sincerity and  authenticity that vastly exceeded performances   305 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:24,480 of knowledge and proficiency you might well  have been describing the difference between   306 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,320 uh enlightenment democratic  politicians liberal democrats   307 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:36,160 and fascist politicians eighteen hundred  years before either of those things existed   308 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,640 in addition to pointing us to the power of  authenticity hermogenes also highlights the   309 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:49,280 importance of public speaking in fascist  politics powerful sincere appearing oratory   310 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:55,120 was crucial for fascist recruitment and  crucial for replacing empirical truths   311 00:33:55,120 --> 00:34:02,720 because of the passion and this the uh the  feeling the emotion that's built into it 312 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,280 fascist leaders of course were often  notoriously powerful speakers historian   313 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:14,080 william carr for instance called hitler quote  one of the great orders of history perhaps the   314 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:19,360 greatest of the 20th century end quote see how  much fun that is it's exciting it feels like i   315 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:25,440 know what i'm talking about even when i'm just  talking off the top of my head mussolini and   316 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,080 cornelius were also charismatic speakers  as were fascist leaders throughout europe   317 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:37,760 and north and south america not all of them were  but but most of them weren't one final point   318 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:44,640 before i wrap up when authenticity supersedes  facts as the primary basis of truth even lying   319 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:51,520 openly and egregiously can become an indicator  of a leader's trustworthiness because it exhibits   320 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:57,920 sincerity practicing open deception may seem like  a strange way to appeal to people seeking truth   321 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:04,800 and authenticity but it's not without a certain  logic in her 2019 book rhetoric and demagoguery   322 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:11,040 patricia roberts-miller argues that assurances  of certainty count as evidence of accuracy   323 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:17,360 because willingness to go to extremes demonstrates  certainty irrationality becomes an odd kind of   324 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:24,880 evidence end quote so since extreme irrationality  is evidence of certainty uncertainty is evidence   325 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:32,160 of authenticity and authenticity is inherently  honest and ironically lying egregiously can be   326 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:40,160 a demonstration of truthfulness in other words  the performance of authenticity can override   327 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,880 almost any other consideration for people who are  desperate for a leader that they think is telling   328 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:50,880 the truth and under those circumstances many  candidates even devoted democratic candidates   329 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:57,760 are happy to oblige the demand for authenticity  for obvious reasons but obviously with appalling   330 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:05,840 potentially appalling consequences and that  brings us back to the present moment i've spent   331 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:11,840 my time today with long dead fascist leaders  but this is not an idle historical inquiry   332 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:19,520 in recent years authoritarian fascist and  otherwise anti-democratic movements have earned   333 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:25,040 significant traction and even hot election to high  office in some of the world's most established   334 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:31,520 democracies including france germany austria  britain and the us in a number of other countries   335 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:38,240 including turkey hungary poland israel kenya india  the philippines bolivia and brazil democratically   336 00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:44,240 elected leaders have taken their elections as  mandates to undermine or destroy democratic   337 00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:52,080 norms and institutions in russia venezuela hong  kong myanmar and elsewhere democracy has been   338 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:58,800 systematically dismantled as sir sarah churchwell  and richard steven gaul have demonstrated it's   339 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:05,520 not just a distant phenomenon either and never  has been american fascism is and has long been   340 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:12,480 a thriving movement perhaps the most famous active  neo-fascist group in america is the proud boys   341 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,960 uh who donald trump name checked in a debate  with joe biden during the presidential campaign   342 00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:22,400 the proud boys have been centrally involved  with events like the unite the right rally   343 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:28,960 in charlottesville virginia in 2017 the january  6th u.s capital attack and street fights with   344 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:36,320 anti-fascist activists in portland berkeley  and modesto in 2020 the southern poverty law   345 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:41,600 center identified local proud boy chapters in  sacramento and modesto you can see i put these   346 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,360 examples together based on the fact that most  of the people in my audience were in california   347 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:52,560 not to be confused with the proud boys the  boogaloo boys are a far-right extremist   348 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:58,160 group whose name derives from a meme that  first started in neo-nazi a neo-fascist   349 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:04,320 message board in 2020 one of the members who  was living in the santa cruz mountains just   350 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:12,160 a few miles from where i live and an active member  of the air force launched deadly attacks against   351 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:18,800 police in oakland and santa cruz county in an  effort to touch off a civil war and then there's   352 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:27,520 identity europa a white nationalist presumably  defunct neo-nazi-affiliated group associated   353 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:34,000 primarily with recruitment on college campuses  including san jose state the founder nathan demigo   354 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:39,920 was born and raised in san jose his linkedin  account indicates that he earned his ba from   355 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:47,280 stanislaus state university there's also patriot  prayer in oregon the national alliance in nevada   356 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,080 adam waffen division with chapters all over  california and in fact all over the country   357 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:58,400 and the national socialist movement in  arizona to name a few we're surrounded by   358 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:04,480 neo-fascists and they are recruiting in our  backyards these groups are filled with our   359 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:09,040 neighbors our colleagues our friends maybe  even some of you who are watching this now   360 00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:15,360 and for the most part the people are who are in  these groups are cynical about democracy and about   361 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:21,840 politicians and they're looking for anyone who's  a quote-unquote honest political actor and they're   362 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:26,000 happy to believe that they're part of a chosen  people and willing to go to extremes to feel like   363 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:33,760 they can stop what they think of as decadence  and the degree degradation of american culture   364 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,600 so while the 20th century's fascist  leaders that i've been talking about today   365 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:46,000 are long dead fascism and fascist  rhetoric live on sometimes candidly   366 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,320 sometimes as obvious but quiet background noise   367 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:58,880 in any case it remains an urgent task for us to  understand why and how fascist movements attract   368 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:06,160 build and sustain support from ordinary citizens  and voters without which they would wither and die 369 00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:15,920 so thank you uh for listening today  um during the original presentation   370 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:22,960 uh several people sent in questions and and asked  me to respond to them and i just didn't have   371 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:28,480 time to do it at that time so fortunately because  of the re-recording i have some additional time   372 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,360 and i can talk a little bit answer some of  the questions that i wasn't able to answer   373 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:40,480 on the first go round there were somewhere  in the neighborhood of 20 questions   374 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:45,840 of those 20 questions somewhere in the  neighborhood of eight of those questions   375 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:54,960 uh were ably represented by this  one offered by pamela stacks 376 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:01,440 she writes i appreciate your characterization  of those who believe in the leader even when   377 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:07,040 the leader speaks lies boldly especially due to  the perceived passion and sincerity of the leader   378 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,680 i remember speaking with an sds  student for democratic society member   379 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:20,880 who in exasperation once told dr stax you  simply have to believe so then she asked   380 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:26,560 how can those who wish to engage these  followers gain traction uh what forms of   381 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:31,680 argumentation could be successful so the  question really at hand is what do we do   382 00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:39,440 for those of us who are committed to democracy  and who want to resist or directly um 383 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,240 fight against fascist rhetoric what do we do   384 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:51,840 the answer i'm afraid is is  not tremendously encouraging   385 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,760 fascists have been recruiting for years and  years and years and for years and years and years   386 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,360 representatives of liberal democracy have  pretended that they weren't a problem and   387 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:10,880 pretended they didn't exist we have in general as  a culture we have gotten really bad at standing   388 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:18,720 up for and defending liberal democratic values and  there are lots of reasons that that we've let that   389 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:24,880 slide but commonly the problem is that we take  for granted that people want democracy we take   390 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:29,840 for granted that people will think liberal  democracy is the best way to run a country 391 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,960 and while i believe that that is the best way  we have available it's not the case that we   392 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:42,400 can take it for granted it's not the case that  everybody believes that liberal democracy is   393 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:52,320 which means the real answer to what should we  do is start 50 years ago but the slightly less   394 00:42:53,840 --> 00:43:03,280 idealistic or glib or unhelpful answer is  the people who are are persuaded by fascist   395 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:10,320 rhetoric are persuaded in community they're  persuaded by people that they trust by tr people   396 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:19,120 that they believe in by by groups and communities  of people that they feel identified with so the   397 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:27,760 best way to counter fascist rhetoric is actually  to talk individually on small-scale people who   398 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:36,320 you have close contacts with communities um that  you can help get to know and talk to and convince   399 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:47,120 over time slowly and with a significant amount of  time and energy commitment that fascism is not the   400 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:54,160 way forward right i wouldn't recommend saying hey  you're a fascist stop being a fascist so much as   401 00:43:55,440 --> 00:44:01,360 giving people who have sincere questions about  how we should be living sincere questions about   402 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:10,560 the state of the world sincere fears and sincere  uh worries um and try to understand those sincere   403 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:16,560 worries and try and talk to people about the  ways to address them that don't return us   404 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:23,280 to you just gotta believe right you just gotta  believe is not how liberal democracies are run   405 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:30,800 but again that takes a lot of time and it takes  a lot of effort and it takes sustained effort on   406 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:39,680 lots of people's parts and i hope we are getting  to a place where it's it's visible to people that   407 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:47,200 fascist rhetoric is re-emergent and has been for  many many years but is especially emergent at the   408 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:55,440 moment um and we need to do the work to try and  and re-commit to liberal democracy and its values   409 00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:04,880 um next question this from matt crockett  do material conditions of a society make   410 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:09,680 a population more less or less likely  to be susceptible to fascist leaders   411 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:14,960 and their rhetoric so do things like jobs  wages economic stability inequality etc   412 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:22,240 make people more or less susceptible to  fascist rhetoric the answer i think is yes 413 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:36,640 it's not a guarantee right it's not a necessary  consequence um but nevertheless it if people are   414 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:41,440 feeling unsettled if people are feeling nervous  if they're feeling anxious about their place in   415 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:48,800 the world um it makes them more likely to find  comfort in certainty comfort and consistency   416 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:54,720 and certainty and consistency are much  harder to find in part because they're not   417 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,840 the central values of of liberal democracy   418 00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:08,160 so as people feel more and more anxious they  are more susceptible to um fascist rhetoric 419 00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:19,280 uh mauricio quirrell asks how do fascists  engage in opposing lies such as you should   420 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:24,240 fear such and such a person and such  and such or such such a group i'm sorry   421 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:30,160 and such and such is an inferior group capable  of nothing so how do we hold these two things   422 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:36,880 uh how fascists hold these two beliefs  in their minds at the same time um 423 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:47,680 the way that that often it happens  is that fascists choose a group   424 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:57,520 of people who are already um vulnerable right  so you can point to somebody for example uh   425 00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:04,640 in 1930s germany what hitler did is he chose  the jews to pick on right and there was   426 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:09,840 already a long history of anti-semitism  in central europe and hundreds of years   427 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:18,640 even though jews in germany were an incredibly  small part of the population in 1920s and 1930s   428 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:27,920 hitler had consistently drummed in to his speeches  that they were all powerful they were involved in   429 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:35,200 bolshevists um conspiracies to run the world they  got involved in the media they got involved in um   430 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:42,480 banking right all of these sorts of things are  they're very common tropes anti-semitic tropes   431 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:52,800 but jews had very little power very little actual  power in germany um on a large scale and so he was   432 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,040 able to more or less say what he wanted to say  about them because they didn't have a whole lot   433 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:04,640 of opportunity to rebut him um and so he would  say they're involved in everything and and and   434 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:09,440 there's more coming right there's more coming  they're consistently in charge of everything   435 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:15,120 and there's more coming and we have to stop them  before they get too powerful and the same is true   436 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:21,840 about neo-fascist rhetoric about immigrants right  are they're coming we should be afraid of them   437 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:27,360 they're very powerful and also because they're  inferior you can talk about them however you   438 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:32,320 want to talk about them um because they're  vulnerable i'm sorry you can call them inferior   439 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:38,720 um so that's the way they do it they sort of  pick on some a group of people that doesn't   440 00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:42,640 have a tremendous amount of power that is  already vulnerable and it's much easier   441 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:51,440 to define define those people however you  want to define them uh an anonymous attendee 442 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:58,720 asks mainstream media appears to have  lost its credibility for so many these   443 00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:04,560 days where do you recommend your students go  for reliable and credible information and does   444 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,600 the fact that so many people do not subscribe to  newspapers or magazines factor into this problem   445 00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:12,320 that's a really good question   446 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:21,040 and it's a challenging one to answer number one  because there are media historians that are far   447 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:26,000 more capable of answering this question than i  am and people who have studied the circulation   448 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:34,800 of news um far more deeply than i have to my  way of thinking the problem is not necessarily   449 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:46,480 that the mainstream media has lost its credibility  one of the challenges of um both the early 20th   450 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:54,160 century and now we find ourselves in this moment  again is that with the prolific proliferation   451 00:49:54,160 --> 00:50:02,320 of new technologies so in the early 1900s it's  the radio in particular and now it's social media   452 00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:10,160 what the proliferation of those things means  is that you can build an entire media diet   453 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:16,000 on whatever you want and you never have  to encounter media that disagrees with you 454 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,280 so if you want to believe for example that 455 00:50:24,240 --> 00:50:31,120 a caravan of immigrants is coming up from  south america to take over the country   456 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:38,000 you can find media and you can only choose to  consume media that will allow you to believe   457 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,400 that over and over and over again and you  never have to find any media you never have to   458 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:48,720 confront any media that disagrees with that  point of view so it's less about the kinds   459 00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:58,000 of media that we have than it is about media  um you know like closed media groups where you   460 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:04,000 only hear what you want to hear so actually  what i tell students is they should consume   461 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:09,760 lots of different points of view lots of different  arguments from lots of different types of media   462 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:15,520 in order to understand how people are using  evidence how people are making their arguments   463 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,880 what arguments trace to what kinds of evidence 464 00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:25,120 where they be they seem to  begin where they originate from   465 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:31,920 um i think people who are supporters of  liberal democracy should be consuming uh   466 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:39,200 media that that runs full in the face of their  beliefs in order to understand what people are   467 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:45,120 arguing and why um how do you make people who  are in a media environment where they don't   468 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:50,480 have to ever confront anybody else any other  points of view i don't know how to do that   469 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:57,280 right that's a real challenge but that is i  think the problem to the second part uh does   470 00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:02,240 the fact that so many people do not subscribe to  newspapers or magazines factor into the problem   471 00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:07,920 i don't think so because we had the same exact  problem in the united states before the civil war   472 00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:13,040 people were able to be in closed media  environments they could consume newspapers   473 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:18,160 they could consume periodicals broad sheets  that they never had to confront anybody else   474 00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:24,640 so i don't i don't think it's so much a function  of the type of media as it is the ways that people   475 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:32,640 access it and whether or not they can get into um  media that that never has to change their minds 476 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:42,720 uh so finally last question this is from chris  wary at san diego state he says neo-fascism   477 00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:48,320 seems to intersect with authoritarianism and  demagoguery can you say a little bit about the   478 00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:56,320 connections or the differences and i i could  say a lot about them in fact i could talk a   479 00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:05,040 whole another hour but i think probably mariah and  leslie would not appreciate it if i did um fascism   480 00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:11,680 is a particular kind of political movement right  it's politics it's about how you organize a group   481 00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:20,480 of people and authoritarianism is too fascism  is generally based on authoritarian principles   482 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:25,920 authoritarianism is not always fascist so you  can have communist authoritarians you can have   483 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:33,760 theoretically you could have democratic  authoritarians um i think in hungary   484 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:41,040 uh the current leader whose name escapes me calls  himself an illiberal democrat or an illiberal   485 00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:47,600 democracy he's an authoritarian even though  he talks about hungary as being um a democracy   486 00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:53,520 so you can have authoritarians that aren't  fascists fascists are almost always authoritarians   487 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:58,720 just by virtue of the fact that there is one  person in charge one leader that everybody owes   488 00:53:58,720 --> 00:54:07,040 their allegiance to but both of them are ways  to organize uh politics demagoguery by contrast   489 00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:15,440 is a way that people argue um and there are  people again who have done lots of work on this um 490 00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:23,360 i am particularly persuaded by the argument that  patricia roberts miller makes which is that we   491 00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:29,680 are in a a culture of demagoguery so there's not  one demagogue who's bad or two demagogues who are   492 00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:36,720 bad but the demagoguery is how people argue  and what they argue essentially is uh we're   493 00:54:36,720 --> 00:54:44,800 in real danger we should stop uh weighing  evidence it's suicide and dangerous to us   494 00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:51,920 if we don't combat the enemy and see the people  who we disagree with as enemies and therefore   495 00:54:51,920 --> 00:55:00,480 given the fact that our our opponents are treated  as enemies eventually at its extreme versions   496 00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:03,920 means that we're going to have to  engage in some sort of violence   497 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:14,960 and or eradication so demagoguery is a way of  arguing that sort of strips out um not just   498 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:20,880 the need for different kinds of evidence but the  value of different kinds of evidence we should not   499 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:28,640 entertain opposing point of views we should not um  consider the policy whether the policy is a good   500 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:34,560 policy we should instead just trust the people  who are part of our in group because they are like   501 00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:39,120 us therefore they are good therefore we trust  them therefore we should go along with them   502 00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:44,320 therefore we should never question them because  questioning them is disloyal and being disloyal   503 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:49,200 is a good way to get yourself in the out group  and therefore a potential target of extermination   504 00:55:50,160 --> 00:56:00,240 so fascism and authoritarianism often rely  on demagoguery demagoguery is not necessarily   505 00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:09,040 a um always does not necessarily always result in  authoritarianism or fascism which are political   506 00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:15,760 systems i hope that makes sense that was a lot of  things going on i want to thank you all again uh   507 00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:21,200 for those of you who have sat through this and  for those of you who attended uh on the 22nd   508 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:28,400 i'm really grateful for this opportunity and  uh again want to thank Lesley Seacrist and   509 00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:44,396 Mariah Ramsour for their efforts to make this  work and with that I will unshare. Thank you.