>> Hi. Hello everyone. Good evening and thank you for coming to our presentation tonight about diversity and cultural competency in archives, the topic, which I'm sure we can all agree is important. First I would like to introduce our two speakers, and then we'll have the presentation, plus a question and answer session as the end. All right tonight we are fortunate to have two dynamic individuals with us. I'd like to introduce Helen Wong Smith, Librarian and Certified Archivist. She is the executive director of the Kaua'i Historical Society and has worked in Pacific Collections for over 35 years, including the Hawaiian collection at the University of Hawaii in Lihue and lead archivist for the pacific island network of the National Park Service. She has written extensively on Hawaiian cultural collections and is a strong advocate for cultural competencies in the archival profession. Our second speaker tonight will be Rebecca Hankins, associate professor and a certified archivist librarian. She received her graduate degree from Louisiana State University in the year 2000. She has been at Texas A&M University since 2003, receiving tenure in 2010. Her previous employment included 12 years as the senior archivist at the Amistad Research Center at Tulane University in New Orleans, the premiere research institution on Africana historical documentation. She teaches courses on the use of primary sources and research, and research methodology. She has presented at numerous conference venues and published in science fiction, library and archival and other peer review journals. Her areas of expertise include building collections and scholarly resources for the African Diaspora, women and gender, and Aerobic language. Her latest publication is a book co-authored with PhD candidate Miguel Juarez titled "Where are the Librarians of Color. The Experiences of People of Color in Academia" Published by the Library Juice Press in 2016. And I found a link for that so I'm going to include that. So, welcome Helen and Rebecca. We're so glad you could speak with us tonight. And Helen would you like to start. >> Okay great. Aloha and it's still 3:30 in the afternoon in Hawaii, so I'm really appreciative that this is not happening at 5 a.m. my time. So, I'll just go ahead and say next slide, like we're in a big conference classroom. And I'm just going to give you a little bit about why I introduce culture diversity confidence through SAA. When you grow up in the most diverse state in the union as Hawaii is and with a very small land mass, we are forced through denigrations to have culture diversity competent. And so, it was very difficult for me to realize that this is not innate for everybody else in the country. So, this is why SAA had been assessing diversity initiatives for many years. Since Elizabeth Atkins had introduced it in her presidential speech in about 2008, I believe it was. And they still considered it a mega issue. There's a wonderful diversity reader that was put together and published by SAA. And, they seem to still be grappling with the how to make both SAA and the profession much more diverse. And I realized at the time I was still on council, that maybe we should take a smaller chunk out of it, a smaller bite. And I introduced cultural competence to the rest of the council. And so, I trained them for 90 minutes. They loved it. And I presented it at the end of the conference to Cleveland. And then I did a full day workshop for council and staff. And so, now it is going to be available, because council feels it's so important, we are going to present it to everyone. I'll be giving it in Omaha, Nebraska at Mack in April and then I will be giving the full day workshop in Portland, next year. So, I want to share with you the precepts of culture diversity competence. And then so you'll have a better understanding of why I think it is applicable to our profession. Next slide please. So, what is it? It's this ability. People, no one. No one is going to admit that they're not tolerant of other cultures. And no one's going to definitely not going to ever admit that they treat other people that are unlike themselves differently. But if you look at this definition of what I'm trying to achieve with this training of cultural diversity competence. Then you'll see that it's much more global and definitely not defined by just ethnicity. So, it's an ability. It's a skill set that you can learn. So, what I have people do for the workshop is to realize that maybe their exposure to very different values, or even behaviors might be so limited that then when they are presented with it, whether it be with your patrons or your donors, or whoever you are working with, your coworkers may throw you for a loop. Next slide. So, this is what we're trying to achieve that you would combine the cultural mindedness with the skills, the communication skills. And that this will go not only on the interpersonal relationship, but within the institution itself. So, this is what I'm hoping that it will be adopted, of course on the individual level. And then it will spread and go on so that it's within our institution and then it will show people that our profession is culturally competent. People you know cultural competency is very extensively written in the professions of counselling, coaches, pharmacists, doctors, you know medical personal. Naturally. But I think that people forget the benefits and how it really is required both as your servicing people and working with our communities, and within our communities. We cannot strive to be, we cannot achieve I should say, being a diverse profession, or even a diverse society if we do not practice it ourselves, within both SAA, both, within the profession and the allied professions. So, you know and you all take reference services in library school, you definitely learn the steps for the effective reference interview with the patron. Well, so much of that is going to rely on cultural competency as well. So, let's see can I change this slide myself? There we go. Okay. We did it. This is an example. I love the cartoon. This is an example that people think well I learned a few words, like I know what they're talking about and I'm culturally competent. There we go. So, I just like to bring this to people's attention that it's a lot more than that. So, what is culture? And it's a local knowledge. And so, when you look at this it's a defined knowledge to a particular group. And you know this World Health Organization definition is bad because you never use the word that you're trying to define in the definition. But, I think what, the reason I like it is that it may be unique, it might be shared. But you have to look at the different cultures in societies. And societies in a much larger context. Not necessarily geopolitical. Not ethnic. So, those are the other things. What I like to show people is this one, especially living and working conditions. That is a culture within itself. Your education background, the diversity is all of these things and more. So, this is just something that in our state and I'm sure in many other states, the type of education you receive is a huge dividing factor within certain societies. So, you might be of a particular racial or ethnic group, but just by virtue of the fact that you have a different kind of education. And this was something that was brought up during the 2008 presidential election. I don't want to get political because then my heart rate will go up, but at the time, Daniel Inouye, the longest sitting center from Hawaii was for Hillary Clinton, and he said that Barrack Obama was out of touch with the common people. And his basis for that is because Barrack Obama went to Punahou, the highest esteemed preparatory school in Hawaii. So, he was making that distinction based on education. And so, I thought that was a good example. But that could be a dividing factor amongst people. So, I did follow somebody else using this cultural iceberg on Facebook today. And they were talking about the native Hawaiian condition. But this is very appropriate I think that when you look at the factors below the waterline, you'll see that everything including body language, thoughts patterns, gestures, of course we all know that. Even things like concept of cleanliness, you know all of these things are factors of cultural value and should be added into cultural competency. And this awareness of this. So, this is something that people should be cognizant of. So, when you decide cultural competency that it really includes these three areas; the cognitive, effective, and behavioral. You cannot just appeal to somebody's intellectual values and assume that they'll adopt it. And this has been going on for those of us of color for many years. You know we're just assumed that, well, you want to have a professional job, you're just going to have to act like us and you have to assimilate. So, there you have it. But then we lose out so many people who can benefit our profession. So, this is something that I really want people to be aware of that it's holistic. It's holistic. You cannot treat somebody a certain way and assume that they'll get it. Here's the knowledge, that culturally competent professionals will seek out. And this is a factor of inquiry that we should all have. You cannot assume that just because you dealt with one particular group in your last job, that you can translate that and apply the same knowledge that you had at that other group to this group. Because even if they're the same culture, just by virtue of them being in a different location, may change it enough to you may very well offend somebody. So, this is something that we need to be aware of. The knowledge, the inquires to apply wherever we go. So, that's my short overview on what cultural competency involves and I'll be happy to take questions after Rebecca. >> All right. That was wonderful. Should I go ahead and begin? >> Yes, thank you. >> Well, thank you so much for inviting me to talk about diversity and diversifying the archives. The book that was mentioned in my bio, it's titled "Where are all the Librarians of Color" but it also is relevant, because I consider myself and archivist, to the archival community and archivists. About five or six of the individuals who wrote essays are archivists. So, the title it does mention librarianship, but there are archivists including myself as the editor. And I also wrote one of the essays. But I really am pleased that we partnered my presentation with Helen's because often times it is how we are defining these words and the intersection of many of these concepts with the profession itself. And so, how we define cultural competency, diversity makes a difference. And they are very much intersecting concepts. So, the definition that Miguel and I used in our book was, in terms of talking about diversity was the inclusion, welcome and support of individuals from all groups, and competencies. All of the various characteristics of persons within the communities. And so, that very much intersects with understanding that people come from, have intersecting identities that we come from culturally different backgrounds and how most people would see an African American may not be what they would see when they see me. They see an African American, but they don't see what is probably typically the African American. So, understanding that diversity within groups is important to recognize. I always tell the story about how when I first started at Texas A&M, which is a very conservative school, including the African American community, I got a call the first couple of days I was here, asking me if I would attend their church. Would I like to come to church? And the first thing I said was have you seen me? So, it's this implication that this idea that even if you are from the same ethnic or racial background that you fit a particular category. And I get this all the time. So, I think that it is definitely understanding that diversity being diversity even within the same racial groups, within the same religious group, or ethnic group that there is diversity. And so, you cannot say that this person, if they are that, they are all you know like, just like in the example that you gave about President Obama. The fact that he came from a different school was a marker for him. So, people would not automatically assume he had the same background. So, I get that all the time. So, one of the things I did want to talk about was that diversity that I've had to deal with in terms of my career. And the fact that we, as archivists are always dealing with diverse communities and it is important that we embrace that diversity and try to represent as much of that diversity within our collecting policies, within our outreach to communities. It's important that we understand that there are groups that have been under represented and are marginalized within the archival community. So, some of the things that I wrote here in terms of the kinds of diverse types of works that I've been able to engage in is part of who we are as archivists. And that we shouldn't box ourselves into that this is all we do. We're only going to be subject selector, or we're only going to be reference archivist, or we're only going to be this. And I've had wonderful opportunities to do a number of things and these are different kinds of things that we can do as archivists and that we should try to expand our understandings of these various roles and these various opportunities. A few months ago, there was a webinar on Fulbright, and I hadn't thought about Fulbright as an academic, as a professor. I hadn't thought about Fulbright as an archivist or librarian. These are opportunities that we can take advantage of. So, my diverse archival experience, again, I've been in New Orleans, I was the senior archivist there for 12.5 years at the Amistad Research Center, which is you know a premier institution dealing with African American and African history. But I was also at the University of Arizona, where I dealt with political collections. And political papers, which was a very interesting experience. And so, these are opportunities that we have. It was interesting for me to deal with politicians. Something that I had never thought that I would do and to be honest never want to do again. But it was a really great experience learning how to really engage people who, in many ways have to have huge egos in order to get into that profession. So, these are just opportunities that we have out there and I don't think we should limit ourselves. I haven't done it; I've been at Texas A&M since 2003. It's been important for me to diversify the archivist space. And that's, and to me that's part of our mission as archivists, that we have to make those spaces more welcoming for diverse groups. I've always felt it was important to develop collections of organizations, and individuals and activities that others may be looked at as footnotes. So, for me it's been important to look at the civil rights movement and document those people who were engaged in other aspects. The people who were Marxist, or socialist or those individuals who decided that it was important for them to be defensive. And to, the people like the Black Panther party, and the Students for a Democratic Society. And those organizations of students who felt that self-defense was important to them. The Deacon's for Defense. The other organizations that really were of the mindset that if they had to resort to violence they would do it. Because they were a part of the civil rights movement. So, it's always been important for me to document communities that we don't normally see and to make sure that their voices are a part of whatever the narrative out there. So, as you can see from this picture, it's science fiction. We have a huge science fiction collection. But our holdings on African Americans are very sparse, almost non-existent. But I pushed for us to collect on African Americans, Latinos, Asian writers. And for me, as someone who's always been interested in science fiction, it was important too to look at, well how has Islam and Muslims contributed to this genre. And so, I've written about it. I've made sure we've collected on these communities. And it's the same thing with the civil rights movement. Making sure that we have Hispanic and Latino individuals who were engaged in civil rights activities. Especially in a place like Texas, where you always had the Latino community very active in civil rights activities. So, it's always been important to me, and I think it's important as we are archivists that we include these groups that you don't normally know about, because they are important to this whole narrative. And it's really interesting at SAA I was on a panel where we, it was the Religious Studies Archivist Panel and one of the things that I came to talk to them about is the inclusion of Muslim voices when you're talking about African American history. And especially if you are collecting in the areas of African and African American history, the civil rights movement, slavery. These are areas, where if you're leaving out Muslim voices, you're leaving out a significant part of African American history. So, again it's always been important to me to make sure we are including all of this. Especially if we're talking about the US history, it's important that we included everyone in the work that we do. So, these are some of the things that I feel is really important. When we do our exhibits, I just did an exhibit on the Mayor of Houston, the former Mayor of Houston, Annise Parker, who was the first openly gay woman to be elected to Houston as mayor. And she came, we invited her to come out. I hosted her talk. I did an exhibit on her, we have been building our collections on the LGBT community and I also hosted her for a conversation she had with students. So, it's important to me that these voices are heard, and that they understand that their work is just as important as anyone else. And I think, so we already have our elevator speech and I added some links to the Bureau of Labor Statistic that you're interested in, becoming an archivist. And some of the fellowships and award scholarships. There is all kinds of opportunities for us as archivists. And, finally diversity matters. It matters that we are documenting all of our contributions to society. And that's it. Did I talk too long? >> That was wonderful thank you very much. I really enjoyed both of your talks. Just, a quick, actually let's do this really quickly the Q&A, seems like let's just keep rolling with that. Does that sound good to everybody? >> Yes. >> Sure. >> I have a quick question actually this is Rebecca again, just to get us started, I had a question for Helen when I was looking at the bios, I noticed that one of your, some letters after you name said FSAA. And I wasn't sure what that stands for. >> Oh, it's Rebecca and I are both. We're fellows of SAA. We were both named fellows this summer. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. Tiana and I, and Catherine actually were there for that. Okay. >> That's right. >> Yeah. Yes. >> I've written it out under my initials. [ Laughter ] >> Well, you know I think when Rebecca and I both elected to the fellows, the distinguished fellows that to me, especially when not too many women of color are elected to the fellows. I think that was a telling move. I think there's, I don't know something like 300 fellow there are maybe 10 people of color. You think it's small, it's not a large group at all. I have the numbers, I may be off, but yeah, at most. I counted. It's not that many of us. [ Laughter ] >> Rebecca you made me feel even more special [laughter]. >> I know. I know. >> That's really surprising. >> Yeah, really. >> No, actually it's not that's a sad commentary. >> Exactly. Exactly. So, it was funny because I was mentioning to someone before, that when they initially asked me last year or the year before that and I told them, oh no they would never elect me to this. And then finally this year they said, I can't, oh gosh and I'm awful I can't remember his name who nominated me, but he said, I'm doing it and I don't care what you say. I said okay. Okay. >> That's great. >> I wanted to ask Helen, that what you're the workshops that you're talking about, I wish when I was on the council we had had that workshop, I think it's excellent, really that wonderful that they've embraced this and are willing to do this. Because it is so important. I think that many people don't understand how important that is. And for them to support you in that it just says a lot about the work that you did and how you, so can you tell us a little bit more about how you talked them into this. [ Laughter ] >> Yeah, so, it's because of Kathleen Rowe. You know what Ann Belle was still president when they were discussing, oh, you know how are we going to increase diversity and they were fighting really, and I recommended that and then when Kathleen Rowe was president she said, okay let's look into this a little more and I think the timing was right, because Dennis who was VP at the time, said oh yeah you know somebody came to us and said have you heard about cultural competency, you know you may want to consider that. So, it was a perfect storm that they were actually open. And I think it's a combination of being [inaudible] for so long as far as diversity initiatives, and my approach has been to expand it, you know expand diversity instead of just ethnicity. And then the reason I think it's been successful and adopted by council so wholeheartedly is because it's a nonthreatening way of exposing to, that they can learn something from these precepts. People want to show them that you may say this, that you embrace it, but let me show you how it can be it's an awareness. It's an awareness. It starts off with an awareness. You make people aware and then you say, okay have you considered this, have you considered that. I do an exercise, that unfortunately is based on ethnicity, but it's putting the different color beads into a Ziploc bag. And so, I ask a series of questions and Tim Piot said it wasn't until I did that exercise that I realized how white my experience has been so, and you know Tim is a wonderful guy. He's the last person that anyone would accuse of not embracing diversity. But it's just experiences. So, that is a real eyeopener. Twana was thrilled with the exercise. When she was head of the diversity working group. So, it was, I think that that's what it is is that you show people that whatever their experiences have been can be enhanced and give them the tools and then you have to really make it [inaudible] for some people. You know if you don't give them steps one, two and three, they don't necessarily understand it. Some people can't handle holistic learning, you know, so and then the concept of learning with your gut feeling is also scary for many academics. But, that's what I do. And it was successful enough that they saw the benefit in it. And so just to let everyone know, they will be you know because I can't clone myself and I don't travel very well, they're going to tape them so that these will be webinars that will be free of cost to all members. >> That's great. >> I think it's just the virtue of the way I do the workshop, it really is better in person. So, I really do encourage everybody to attend it in Portland. >> This is Rebecca Young again, I'm not sure if I missed this, I'm sorry if I did, but how does the bead exercise work? Do you have to attend the conference to know about it, or? >> Yes, yes. >> You have to attend the workshop. >> Yeah, no. It's just a matter of that I assign different colors to ethnicities. It would be, so for instance the white bead is for Caucasian, the brown bead will be for Hispanic and the yellow bead will be for Asian. And then I as a series of questions and you put a bead like, you know what were the predominant ethnicity of your elementary school teacher. And then you put a bead in for that. And what was the ethnicity of the last people you had over for dinner. You know, so all those things put together. And it shows you the predominant, if there is a predominance of one particular color in your bags. And that's when people realize like, oh yeah I may really say I'm diverse or I have a diverse background, but son of a gun, look at this. >> And it's a good visual tool. >> Yes. Yep. And I figured once I got Twana, well she was so enthusiastic and she goes can I keep my bag [laughter]? So, I thought, oh okay if Twana likes this. And Twana rarely, rarely. I can't remember Rebecca, where is Twana working now? >> Oh, and I took I was her, she was at Simmons, but I don't think she's at Simmons anymore. She, as a matter of fact, I think Twana's. >> That's right. >> She's [inaudible] so I'm not sure where she is now to be honest. You know. >> Well, but you know just the fact that she was the head of the diversity committee, I thought was a good sign that she liked the district side. >> Yeah, she did some great things too you know some of the activities that they were engaged in were really something we hadn't done. Especially they worked on some of those, oh what were those, the small, the books that, oh I can't think of the name of the book that they worked on, but she was definitely one of the, and I helped her with some of that, just reviewing. >> Yeah I think that was the diversity reader. The reader, yes. Just reviewing some of these things for to make sure that they were addressing some of the issues that we had as part of an organization, yeah it's good. And I think she still wants, she's trying to still be very active and she was at SAA. As a matter of fact, I rode home with her, I mean rode back to the hotel after the funeral, the memorial funeral. >> Oh, yes. >> So, I was there for that. >> Okay. >> Any other questions? I see so you have your fall calendar. >> Yes. >> I see the thing on SAA benefits in the ACA exam that's going to be in November. >> Yes. >> I'm the new regent for the ACA exam. So, I'm pleased to see that you will have a session on that. >> Yeah, great Brenda Gumm [assumed spelling] and Sammie More [assumed spelling] they are doing that presentation for us. >> Oh really? >> Yes. Yes. Excellent. Excellent. Yeah, I've been talking to some people about their experience. I've been trying to get feedback on, especially the most recent exam, but I'm also trying to understand you know how people are looking at this exam and what their opinions are of it. So, it will be interesting. Maybe I'll try to; can I log in while they are doing that session or is it going to be in person? >> No, absolutely I can send you the participant link. >> Okay, excellent. I definitely want to hear what they have to say. Because one of the issues for me in dealing with the ACA exam is especially this latest exam, we got a lot of really negative responses and I just want to find out you know what are people, you know what are they looking for in the exam, and how is the exam you know fitting the needs of members. So, definitely would be interested in that. Sorry I got off topic. Absolutely. >> But yeah, we'd absolutely love to have you. >> Okay. >> What I did have a quick question I wanted to ask to both of you. Just as, you know talking about, you know speaking personally as a white woman and being very adamant about being an ally and co-conspirator with the [inaudible] matter movement and wanting to be an ally in the information profession and as upcoming professionals if you have good suggestions for people who are in that community know how to be in support the movement like diversify our field, you know like what if there are specific ideas, concepts, suggestions about the best way to do that [inaudible] you know? >> So, Helen you can go ahead if you have some idea. >> Okay, well I would, my connection wasn't very good but I think you were asking what our recommendations about being women in the profession? >> More along being white allies. Like how to you know be white allies and co-conspirators. About how to make sure that we help be support and just making the field more diverse. You know? >> Yeah, it was interesting that I don't know I can't remember how many years it's been, but when I first started going to SAA I really didn't feel welcomed. So, and I thought it was because I was a woman of color. Women, a Caucasian woman told me, oh no I felt it too. So, I thought okay can't use that as a reason. I think that it's the support that we give each other. I do enjoy when you're on council, you're encouraged to go to the snap mixer you know. And I think that continues beyond just from snap. Because a lot of people come into this profession because they're introverts. You know some are not. I'm not saying that we're all. I'm not going to make a blanket statement. But I think that especially when you are dealing with colleagues, or patrons, or anybody and you see that they feel slightly uncomfortable is to go up and try to include them. I'm always amazed at how people will gravitate to their, people they know. And I'm really, I guess I'm more cognizant of it because I was an outlier. If you came to Hawaii to an Association of Archivists meeting and we didn't know you we'd be like whoa hi, what are you doing here and such. I was shocked when I went to the California Society of Archives meeting and nobody approached me. >> Oh wow. >> Nobody. And said, oh hi, you're new here, you know well what are you doing here. Or what, you know you know. What brings you to California, you know this is about SAA. And I think that that's something that I would, regardless of where you are in your stage of the profession, is to seek out and make people feel supported. And that just goes for everybody it doesn't matter what color or, you know especially if you see somebody who's kind of hugging the wall, or in a meeting and they look like they're feeling, what's the word? Overwhelmed, or, and I really appreciated that when a leader of a group and there are always going to be those who will speak their mind and have to have a comment on every little thing, and leaders who purposely ask for some kind of input for those who don't speak up, who don't really voice their opinion. And I think, and you can do that now. >> I concur with everything that you said. It really is so important, when I first went to SAA, that was in, I know I'm aging myself, '89 well '89, or it may have been around 1990 and no one spoke to me or said anything, and you know I wasn't even, I hadn't been in the field that long and I was at Amistad at the time, and Dr. Johnson who was the executive director he thought it was, and he was a white guy, who became a really close friend and mentor to me, before he passed. He was a real big advocate of the archival field. He was one of the founders of the New Orleans Archivists Organization. He paid, and you know I barely know what an archive was when I started working there, but he thought it was so important that I know about the field and meet people. So, he paid for me to go. And I remember going and he paid the whole time I was there; you know SAA has never been cheap. And they've always stayed at too expensive hotels in my opinion. But, he paid for the entire time for me to be there and I was lost. No one spoke to me. No one invited me to be a part of a group or anything. And at that time there weren't that many African American archivists it was a small group, but I guess I just looked totally, again, that whole notion of the African American being a minority, but being a different kind of minority than most African American states. And so, I was pretty much ignored. So, I didn't go back until it had to be four of five years later. And I only went back because there were other African Americans at Amistad who we went together and that's how I got involved. One of my good friends who was very active and he basically showed me the ropes, got me involved in the archivists and archives of color. And part of it is too you can't have; it can't be all on one side like they need to come to me. I needed to reach out to them too. But I had no idea how to do that. And so, when you're dealing with, I think it's very important to join groups. You know I remember joining the university, I joined this group of university library officials at ALA. And I remember it was the University Library Group section. And I remember walking in there, not a person of color in the group. And they looked at me and come to find out these were all library deans and library heads. But they really welcomed me, and I just started you know asking to volunteer for things and now, some of those same deans I know personally. So, sometimes it is on us to make that step too and join these groups. I mean none of these groups are closed. Especially in the archivist field. So definitely it's important that we also, and it's hard to just take that initiative and reach out and say, especially in the archivist and archives of color section that's always, I mean the round table has always been very diverse. And they are always looking for people to help and volunteer. We have people of all races, sexual orientation, it's a very welcoming group, now [laughter]. >> Wonderful thank you. >> Yeah I think, yeah it's truly it's changed. It's really changed. >> Yeah, well I insisted, when I became chair of the Archivists and Archives the Fellow Round Table, that was my thing. We need to reach beyond you know the same groups, the same thing we've been doing. And I wasn't even a, was I certified archivist, I can't remember, but I remember inviting the president of the Archival Certifications Group to the meeting at that time to talk to the archivists of color. Archives and archivists of color to talk to them about certification and the value to the group. And there were people in AACR that really were very much opposed to certification. But I thought it was important to at least hear these different voices and it did result in some people you know seeing the value of the archivist certification. >> Great. Well, Helen, Rebecca I think I want to stay on the call with you for hours longer, but we are going to need to wrap up here. I just wanted to thank you both so much for like again, taking the time to talk with us. I want to stay on the call longer, and we look forward to continuing those relationships with you. So, thank you again. And to everyone who was able to join us tonight thank you for being here and we will definitely share a recording of this call out via our social media. >> Thank you. >> Bye. >> Bye. >> My pleasure. >> Aloha. >> Aloha. >> Have a good night everybody.